Yeah, I forgot the wiki APCR calculator never worked. Do you know anyone that can datamine the in game calculator?
Unfortunately I don’t, otherwise I would’ve definitely asked them. I am also interested in how the APDS calculators work. They seem to behave similarly to APCR where the weight of the overall projectile contributes quite a bit to the overall penetration, but I’d really like to actually know precisely how it is done.
Edit to clarify: The wiki calculators are relatively easy to obtain because they are in the script of the internet page itself, which can be accessed with inspect element and such, assuming you know where to look (I didn’t and still don’t, which is why I had to ask for the javascript on discord rather than getting it myself). The script for WarThunder is… a lot less accessible. We can get the values through datamines, yes, but not the script, and this script is what makes the values work the way they do.
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Using the combination of my suggested changes and ballistics data I’ve found online for US rounds, here is what the 76mm would look like all together. The ballistics calculator only worked in fps and yards, but the penetration values are in millimeters.
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Wow, that’s a massive buff to APCR. It might actually be able to penetrate something!
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76mm APCR is under performing by quite a bit. Other rounds are underperforming as badly. Not sure why the 76mm is so far off.
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M304 has 287 mm of pen but that’s because it has a 38.1 mm core instead of the 48 mm it should be. It’s pretty much the only APCR that isn’t entirely bad and yet the only reason for it is because Gaijin has implemented it incorrectly.
Edit: On a side note I feel like 299 mm might be too low for M304? But I guess I need to make more research on that.
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US APCR cores tend to be half the bore diameter, so 90mm APCR would have a 45mm core. But 48mm would be the high end of the tolerance.
M304 was around 315mm using softer target plates. ~300mm works for the proper target hardness.
So long as it works out to it going through the Panthers UFP at least from roughly 450 yards/411 meters away.
I don’t have the exact APCR slope modifiers but based on what I could come up with, it would pen to about 400 yards.
I can give them.
Weirdly enough, APCR does actually have different slope modifiers for different D/T ratios, although it only ranges from 0.5 to 1.0 (in short, APCR can’t overmatch armor, but it can undermatch armor).
For 55º, it’s a 3.4 to 3.3 multiplier for APCR, for 0.5 and 1.0 D/T ratio. Since the core is 38.1 mm and we are shooting an 80 mm plate, it should use the 3.4 value, giving us 272 mm effective.
On another note, could you show what your APCR calculator says about BR-365P, 367P, 412P Russian APCR rounds (assuming all of these have accessible real life data, if you can’t get any data on them I can just provide the in-game values) and the T44 and M332 HVAP rounds?
I’ve found an old forums post about the penetration of M304 that says it should have 317 mm of point blank pen.
I’m not quite qualified enough or awake enough to check the sources used and if the math has validity so I’ll leave it here.
If you can find information on the Russian rounds, I’ll check it.
T44 is 351mm.
M332 is 349mm.
Here is BR-365P
Velocity I found at 1000 meters is 751 m/s which works out to 124mm. Not quite the 130mm claimed but reasonably close.
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I made a few more charts.
This is the 90mm M3
105mm T5
120mm T53 with T116 APBC. T116 was developed into the M358 used by the M103.
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Looking at the speed and weight of the HVAP for the 120 mm T53 in-game, it seems to be loosely based on this.
Although the core weight in-game is 6.8 kg and the mass is 16.3 kg.
Either way it seems to be underperforming in with the calculator if we take these results for granted.
15.5 inches at 1000 yards, or 393.7 mm of penetration. Although seemingly there were a bunch of different HVAP rounds tested for the 120 mm, so can’t really say for certain if the one I mentioned above is the one that had this penetration.
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From the document Table of Form Factor of Projectiles, the T17E1 may have had a velocity of 4150 fps. If that’s true and the core to carrier weight is about 50%, like it seems to be for US APCR, the chart would look like this.
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I’m just going to quote the entirety of The Armored Patrol on the 120 mm HVAP for the T53 cannon, because honestly the T17 HVAP is just too confusing.
T17 HVAP
High velocity armor piercing / composite rigid projectile, taking similar design to the 105 mm T29E3 of the T5E1 gun. Situation Report No. 37 indicated the complete weight between 13.6 – 14.5 kg (4.5 kg tungsten carbide core) with muzzle velocity between 1188 – 1219 m/s. But there is a conflicting sources between each sources, 3 in total.One is from Situation Report, which is using this specification.
1st Specification:
Weight: 14.51 kg
Muzzle velocity: 1219.2 m/s
Core diameter: (?)
Core mass: 4.5 kg
Core type: Tungsten carbideAnother one is from Detroit Arsenal Automotive Development Conference, indicated an increase to its weight at 16.32 kg (7.25 kg tungsten carbide core) with drastic muzzle velocity drop at 1082 m/s.
2nd Specification:
Weight: 16.32 kg
Muzzle velocity: 1082.04 m/s
Core diameter: (?)
Core mass: 7.2 kg
Core type: Tungsten carbideT17E1 Mod. 0 HVAP
The last one is from Table of Form Factors of Projectiles, 1958. This shell retained the similar specification from the Situation Report, but went with different designation.
3rd Specification:
Weight: 12.7 kg
Muzzle velocity: 1264.92 m/s
Core diameter: (?)
Core mass: (?) – Probably same as the T17, 4.5 kg
Core type: Tungsten carbide
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Yeah, I’ve seen that a few times. Until we can find better information, I’m not sure how much more we can change. I think its pretty safe to say the muzzle velocity is 4150 fps because the Form Factors document was written later than the Detroit document.
Well right now Gaijin seems to have based the HVAP on the Detroit document except the core is too lightweight.
Besides that it has a 63.5 mm core in-game. I don’t really know why 63.5 mm specifically other than the fact that gives 2.5 inches. But that’s also something where there’s just outright not a single source to say which would be the correct value other than speculation.
Yeah, they are definitely using the Detroit document but unless they add core information to the stat cards, we can’t really change it. I don’t think you can use datamined information in bug reports.
You can, or, well, at the very least datamined results have been used for bug reports. It is the case for the transmissions of all the Pershings, the M18s and the M4A3s, which were all changed and corrected in “Drone Age” precisely because of a couple bug reports that used datamined values.
M18s: M18 GMC incorrect transmission - Already Reported & Resolved - War Thunder - Official Forum
M4A3s: 2021-11-30 [2.11.0.92] M4A3(HVSS) incorrect gear ratios - Documented Ground Reports - War Thunder - Official Forum
Pershings: 2021-11-09 [2.11.0.43] M26/T26 series tanks incorrect gear ratios - Documented Ground Reports - War Thunder - Official Forum
Besides, if you do use datamined results… Gaijin can either say that the in-game values aren’t matching the documented values and therefore the bug report is valid, or they say that the documented values are already implemented in the game and the datamined values are inaccurate. Either way it’s a win.