Was there a reason the Fw190 fm hasn’t been fixed in relation to unrecoverable flatspins? The aircraft didn’t have the balance to even enter that kind of flat spin since all the weight was in the front. Anyone have any sources to work to fix this issue or has it been denied before?
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I mean whats up with the bricked FM of all the Fw 190 anyway? They were comparable to the Spitfire according to the internal Allied testing of the captured planes. Actually Fw 190 was better in all metrics except the tightness of a turn, but it would still win a 2 circle fight due to its higher acceleration and energy retention.
Nicknamed butcher birds lose all elevator authority under 300kmh and struggle to reach 450kmh. Hell, even a bomber outturns it now.
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IIRC the FW190 is comparable to the P-51 in terms of turning IRL
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I’m not sure about flat spin recovery but It’s stall behaviour is very realistic one of disadvantages of Focke-Wulf 190’s had a dangerous propensity to just stall, flick and flat spin without warning in turns under g and at slow speeds if turned turned to tightly.
A Luftwaffe Pilot who was a test pilot for Air Ministry evaluated many aircraft’s in war he goes into depth about flaws and strengths of each aircraft in his book. According to him BMW engine had many faults and was prone to overheating and heating up the cockpit. His initial assessment was “the Focke-Wulf 190 is a pilot’s frying pan”.
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It would stall easily but the stalls are relatively easy to recover from. The front engine puts all of the weight at the front and doesn’t allow the airframe to flat spin, like aircraft such as the p39 are infamous for. The nose will dip and the stall can be recovered. You need altitude sure, but currently the fw190 will stall and then immediately go into a near unrecoverable, or sometimes completely unrecoverable, flat spin. I’m not 100% sure what is causing this issue, but it seems that the center of gravity on the airframe is wrong. Games like il:2 have much more realistic stall behavior on the 190 and is far more forgiving.
Big Misconception the Focke-Wulf 190’s was only superior to earlier Mk’s at the time of introduction. The new fighter outperformed the Spitfire Mk V ,The Focke-Wulf 190 was considerably better in firepower, rate of roll, and straight-line speed at low altitude.
In combat the German machine could dictate terms, especially during the initial engagement and later disengagement; but once in a dogfight, the Spitfire’s superior turning ability meant that it could more than hold its own and it’s aerodynamically fact Spitfires had better energy retention under most circumstances especially when turning.
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Although I agree that 190 has a shitty FM (reported some obvious rubbish, but got response that I’m “wrong”, by “knowledgeable” GJ developers), 190 can’t match the Spitfire in 2 circles. Not enough Specific excess power. Even 109 can’t match the Spit at full boost, but Spit has relatively short boost time and once Spit’s boost is gone, 109 dominates.
There has never been a spin I couldn’t get out of even in the D-9
I’ve been flying A & F series but not the Dora’s lately and haven’t had any problems with flat spins. Even when forcing a sharp stall or Flick roll the recovery seems instant maybe your settings aren’t dialed in yet because FW feels like it’s on rails compared to a Spitfire for example. My Sensitivity for FW is in 80’s for all axis
Just ran into the flat spin issue again yesterday, so its not fixed. Once you start flat spinning its just completely unrecoverable. I spun from 5000m down to the deck with absolutely zero response from the controls. It seems to be related to how much fuel you’re carrying. More than about 30 mins and it’ll flat spin.
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In Air RB not so long ago Gaijin decided to ruin every Fw 190 A5 inngame. A8/F8 and A4 have superior turn and superior high speed controls. Every single one A5 is an absolute nightmare to fly. Slow? Dead due to bad maneuvrability.
Fast? Dead due to bad maneuvrability.
Medium speed? Outgunned by everything since Shvak (90g, 5-6g of TNT ewuivalent) has way superior ballistics and way more hitting power than MG151/20 M-Geschoss (92g, 29g TNT equivalent).
I wonder if Sim Fw 190 flight models are also like this - with A5 being by far the worst Fw 190 and everything before and after that handling kinda Ok-ish.
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No. Strangely I can get a decent performance out of them in ASB. Responsive, agile. Even went head to head 1 circle with a Spitfire and won. Very smooth plane (A5).
IDK why it´s such a brick in RB, my guess is that the instructor is bugged.
Every single Fw 190 in RB underperforms, that much is clear to anyone actually playing it. The only times I get a kill in them in RB nowadays is if the enemy is incompetent or if they are not paying attention.
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You find way more reliable data if you read the JG 26 diaries by Caldwell. The front line testing and the initial issues were described there in detail. The overheating get fixed in '41 even if it took some time.
Despite irl and wt are 2 different things, you might consider the following:
- The 190s of JG 26 & JG 2 were professionals and maintained even (after a a few MK VIIIs and Mk IXs entered the scene) an undisputed 4:1 kill ratio vs the RAF FC.
- In other words: They knew what they are doing. So if you can dictate the fight and you are aware of a disadvantage just in tight turns - you simply avoid tight turns.
- The aerodynamics and energy retention are strongly related to engine power available - that’s why the UK buffed low alt power (=LF) of the used engines, as most of their sorties of Leaning into France were low alt missions. Imho the energy retention of the the non-Griffon spits was inferior to 190s - have in mind that the Mk V was widely used even in 1944.
The “flicking” (only at a specific flight condition) from one side to the other is described at least in 2 Fw 190 pilot memoirs/biographies - and the the pilots were aware of this and even used this in dogfights to get rid of enemies at their six. I never read that a stall/fat spin was involved, it would be great if you could provide a source for your claim. Thx in advance!
I flew all 190s years ago (on an inactive account) with HOTAS, SFC and instructor off - and the only plane i somehow enjoyed was the F-8 - mainly due to its air spawn and lower weight compared to the A-8.The D-13 was ok at higher alt for energy trapping Spits or F8Fs, but if you fly them vs mouse aim pilots and have to avoid headons due to your aim disadvantage, the fun is rather limited.
Imho the 190 FMs (at least for Air RB) are simply far worse than everything i read about them and this is one reason why i don’t fly German planes on this account - as i was never a friend of 109s. No idea why a RU game developer would do this on purpose, but it is what it is.
As i saw DEFYNs vid about the torpedo variant (watch it to see spins) i gave up on German planes.
I meet all of the 190s in my battles and they are basically a free kill if you avoid headons at any cost and are aware of this insane snapshot ability at very high speeds.
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Yes, the A5s are horrid to fly.
They need their flight models looked at, or a BR decrease.
I honestly can’t remember the last time I fought an A5, I guess that tells the story…
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Yes, I saw it. That particular Fw 190 came out 2 months before they were all bricked and remain bricked since. At that time I mained A-5/U2 and was regularly winning dogfights against Spits and P-51´s in it. The next day I was unable to fight even P-47´s. A Russian bomber outturns the Anton nowadays. This is simply ridiculous.
The change is in this changelog.
What an awful Christmass present.
I never died to a Fw 190 when playing China or USA. I see Fw 190, I know I can do whatever I want. Even when he has a 1km alt advantage. It´s laughable.
The only Fw I play now is the Ta 152H. That thing is joy to fly and I believe it´s how all of the Fw 190´s should actually behave more or less. My belief is that Gaijin actually overlooked it by mistake that day and forgot to nerf it. The day Gaijin bricks this one is the day I uninstall the game.
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You want sources a simple google search on Focke - Wulf 190 stall characteristics or accelerated stalls give me hundreds of thousands results bro!
Lednicer Report German study on the causes of the FW190 ‘snap’ at low speed and high G turns.
The scenario was described as also an aeroelasticity issue but the problem was headlined at the outer/upper wing torquing due to aeroelasticity and locally increasing the tip AOA - causing the stall - and snapping to inside.
“The only experience I had with an accelerated stall was once and it snapped in and down into a tight spin, recoverable but scary for first time with enough altitude - but not on the deck unless extremely lucky and skilled… on the other hand the 51 gave plenty of advanced warning with elevator shaking, and you just let off the back pressure a tad.”
“The experienced guy would be the one that didn’t quite back it off enough but just before it snapped on him, eased the pressure enough to still get the stall but have enough control to quickly cut the power and recover - say in 500-1000 feet.”
Capt. Eric Brown
“If the German fighter FW190 was pulled into a g stall in a tight turn, it would flick out of the opposite bank and AN INCIPIENT SPIN WAS THE INEVITABLE OUTCOME!”
Lt. Victor Heimann (8./JG 300) in Lorant/Goyat (JG 300)
“As we came in sight of the airfield at Bindlach, four Mustangs hove into view above us. Two of the American fighters were already wheeling down towards us. I gesticulated desperately in Poppe’s direction to warn him as the Mustangs converged to attack. I will never know if he saw my warning signals or not. In the instant that followed, I jettisoned my auxiliary fuel tank and broke very hard left to turn and face the P-51. This maneuver proved fatal. The FW190 had one nasty vice - the wing would drop and the aircraft pitch brutally over into a half roll when pulling turns that were too tight. My crate rolled through 180°, stalled and plunged vertically down. This unwitting and unfortunate evolution brought me right into my opponent’s sights.”
John Weal - Aces of Russian Front
190 pilots were warned that, if engaged in a tight turning fight: “In clean configuration, the stall was sudden and vicious. Let the speed fall below 127mph and…the port wing would drop so violently that the FW190 all but turned on its back. Pull into a G-stall in a tight spin and it would flick over into opposite bank and you had an incipient spin on your hands.'”
I’m too Lazy post translation of Russian TSAGI and U.S project TED both unclassified documents reports the same stall charcistics on FW’s tests during war time.
About those Mk.Vs being widely used 1944!
A total of 6,464 Spitfire Mk. Vs were built between 1941 and 1943. Mk. Vs equipped to more than 140 RAF squadrons, including the Eagle Squadrons composed of American volunteers flying for the RAF. Late 1941 A1 enters service 417 are produced until 1942 and 920 A2 - A3 are produced in between 1942 and 1943. A total 5,656 Spitfires Mk. IX’s were built between June 1942 and 1945. MK. IX’s enter service 9 months after Mk. V by 1944 over 4000 are produced only 55 sqaudrons remain equiped with Mark IX’s. In 1944 only 5 sqaudrons remained equiped with Mk.Vs 2/5 were used in d day, other 80 sqaudrons I’m guessing are in newer Mk’s in 1944. Total FW A-series Production Across all variants, 13,291 were produced. My Source’s RAF and Wiki
No-one can dispute that the excellent low-altitude performance of the FW 190 especially over merlin 45 one thing that is often forgotten is in 1942 introduction of the 60-Series Merlin (two-stage, two-speed supercharger) engine what clawed back it’s performance and was the equal of the FW190. What is even more impressive is that the capacity of the Merlin was really small when compared to the opposition. That Merlin had only a capacity of only 27 litres, where as the DB601 of the Messerschmitt was 39 litres and the BMW801 engine of the FW190 had 42 litres. The superiority of the later Merlin-engined Spitfires like mark Mk IX’s over these Luftwaffe aircraft is all the more remarkable when this is remembered.
As for BMW reliability was mostly because of poor quality within German aviation manufacturing. Worker shortages eventually led the German aviation industry to shift aircraft production to assembly lines and used unskilled workers that reduced aircraft quality. Allied bombing of German aviation industry factories resulting in the wide distribution of aircraft production, and further decreased aircraft quality. Finally, slave labor in the aircraft industry and the effects of sabotage and poor workmanship had on German aircraft quality during the war. Over 50% BMW work force during WW2 was forced labour over 29000!
Thx for your reply. It looks like we have here a classic misunderstanding as i was not precise enough. I simply struggled with your wording
The sources you provided describe widely known behaviour as a result of the rather high stall speed - and the sudden flick as a result of a stall is also nothing new - but in my understanding a flat spin is a highly dangerous situation so i was unable to match the pilot reports i had in mind and flat spinning.
Why? I could not understand why LW pilots claimed that they used violent flicking on purpose to get rid of enemies behind them as that would have made no sense if this would have resulted in a flat spin…
So your feedback:
…does not include anything regarding flat spin.
My understanding of a flat spin in a 190 is best described by others (190s flat spin - bing- ):
Summary
Yes and no.
The Fw 190 was actually known for having abrupt and even violent stall characteristics. It would stall easily and get into a spin easily. That part is more or less right.
However, the part that isn’t right in War Thunder is spin recovery. In reality, the Fw 190 was not possible to get into a flat spin. True flat spins require a certain aerodynamic condition where the centre of mass can be behind the centre of pressure; there were only a handful of aircraft where this could happen and on those examples, it was considered a huge liability. Two such examples would be the early P-39 with the nose cannon ammo depleted, and the P-51 with full fuselage tank. For these planes, the weight distribution was such that if the plane got into the spin, it was possible for it to develop into a true flat spin, and in both cases it was solved - for the P-39 they changed the weight distribution, and for the P-51 they instructed the pilots to always use up the rear fuel tank first, even before any external fuel tanks.
In War Thunder, many planes - including Fw 190 and some Bf 109s - have a tendency to get into unrecoverable flat spins. That part of their flight characteristics is pretty much just wrong, as these planes were physically incapable of flat spinning. If they actually were prone to flat spins, there would be plenty of mention of that in the literature; pilots such as Eric Brown who test flew the 109 and the 190 would certainly have noticed these tendencies (and probably wondered if the Germans were suicidal for flying these aircraft).
So, in summary: The fact that the Fw 190 stalls and spins easily is more or less the right idea. Stall recovery, on the other hand, is incorrectly modeled. It’s difficult to say what causes this, but the flight model is reasonably accurate until the aircraft departs controlled flight - the stability of the aircraft is OK up to that point. Post-stall characteristics are what causes the problems with unrecoverable spins.
As the next part is imho off topic - hidden:
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Regarding your comparison of production numbers of Spits and 190s - idc.
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As long as i remember that i have read that Mk Vs were used in those low level attacks above France even in '44 (and get shot down there) i don’t care if their share was 5, 10 or 20% of the available aircraft. Nevertheless you put efforts in your research so i will adjust my initial claim from “widely used” to “still used” - i hope we can agree on that. :-)
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Regarding your love for Spits - fine for me. Despite i usually refer to US deliverered 100 octane fuel which made the Spits able to fight 109s in the BoB in the first place - forget it. Not worth the time and off topic.
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I am not here to discuss about Spits vs 190s - but imho you sounda little bit like Greg (yt cc) praising the P-47 as one of if not the best fighter aircraft of WW 2 and somehow similar important to mankind like the wheel or sliced bread.
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Same with RR Merlin. No need to discuss this.
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Imho you claims regarding lowering production quality are valid from mid 1942 onwards, same as for acts of sabotage. But this has imho nothing to with the fact that engine overheating and upheating of the cockpit of the first 190s were solved in '41.
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There’s 3 stages of stall Entry, Incipient, Delovoped and Recovery. The term “Flat Spin” wasn’t used in WW2, In early flight an Aerodynamics Spin was just referred to as “Spin” or “Tail Spin” and described as being in horizontal or Vertical. Focke Wulf Designer Kurt Tank for one example described he did not know whether he was in an upright or inverted spin on one occasion.
Focke Wulf Centre of Gravity is being over exaggerated here! Flat spin happens when the center of gravity shifts too far aft (toward the tail), and the aircraft’s rotation becomes more horizontal… Early models of Anton CG is 0.77m Aft later models and development of series CG shifts even more towards Aft. In comparison Spitfire MK. V CG is 7.4" so 0.18m Aft and is well documented Spits could and would enter a Flat Spin. The only difference compared to FW during a stall is the Spit would give a lot of warning to the pilot before reaching a stall due to its wing design characteristics the inner wing “The Root” would stall and vibrate before wing stalled at the tip causing total loss of lift. FW would give little to no warning before reaching limits the stall would be sudden without warning explanation of stall characteristics I’ve already posted.
Pilots would of performed Snap rolls and other Flick manuoeuvres withing the limits of aircraft.
1944 53 Spitfires were lost to all causes 8 to enemy fighters only 1 was a Mk.V what was shot down over France in early January. MK.VB BL556 - E
I have more than one favourite WW2 aircraft has nothing to do with bias or the love of Spits and more to do with correcting miss information and Axis bias. I used production values for perspective on numbers of Spits and FW at the time to make my point.
The serious overheating problems of Focke Wulf series was never adequately fixed. The problem stemmed from a very tight cowling design that choked airflow around the engine. A cooling fan geared to the propeller to force air between the engine cylinders did not help and the switch to the more powerful engines only compounded the problem. They did fix some issues like carbon monoxide leaking into the cockpit and managed to reduce the cockpit heat by moving cockpit aft more and more aft with the bigger engines increasing that CG.
I have no issues with FW handling in game my settings are dialed in. I have no problems recovering from Incipdient and Developed phases of a Spin. High ping spikes has mostly been causing the stall and unrecoverable Spins from my experience what happens in most props not only FW’s.
Did’nt Ben Affleck bring that fuel over with him in his kit bag?
I am not sure that anything from Hollywood is suited to be considered as reference. I still remember the famous P-51 vs 262 headon in Red Tails - my son could not understand why i started laughing… :-)
The rest of you post - imho we are drifting even further away from the topic Fw 190 FM. Regarding your analysis - all fine and good even if most is a matter of semantic as idc if flat spinning was used as a word, but the main issue is the same: The wt flight model of Fw 190s are not comparable to irl - and the praised irl agility of 190s is in wt absent.
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