Ok and why should they “refund you” RP?
Rank 8 for ground can only happen by moving vehicles around.
Especially if people think rank 9 will ever happen.
This also decreases the amount you have to grind, not increase.
first of all this is very weird at least for me… why is the fw190 d9 at rank 3 now? will its br drop or no?
second of all will we lose progress on tanks like for example i am currently researching the German PUMA im halfway through it and i don’t have rank 7 unlocked yet… now because i dont have rank 7 yet will that mean that i will lose the RP progress that i made on it or no? same with the leopard 2K… i hope we dont lose all progress or be unable to purchase the vehicles even after fully researching them too
2 Likes
Why are the German C.200 and C.202 Rank 1 when the exact same planes are Rank 2 in the Italian tree?
2 Likes
Yes that’s precisely the point of why I want them to remove the Magic 2.
Without the Magic 2 it should go down to 10.7. 11.0 is still too high IMO.
For instance at 11.0 it would still see 12.0 top tier aircraft almost every match (trust me I tried… ).
We can also compare it to an aircraft at 11.0, like the JA-37C for example :
JA-37C can get kills against 12.0 jets thanks to the combination of a decent Pulse Doppler radar and missile as well as great manoeuverability.
Mirage F1C on the other hand doesn’t have the manoeuverability to employ the Magic 1 effectively against fast and agile 12.0 aircrafts and the Super 530F it carries can be chaffed on demand.
The Mirage F1C is nothing special and without the Magic 2 it would not be too much of a threat to aircrafts between 9.7 and 11.7.
Compared to the Mirage IIIE that comes before it, it would carry some more missiles and a better radar at the cost of not being nearly as agile.
2 Likes
You wont lose RP progress, they’ve moved things around a lot over the years. You’ll keep the progress on it but you wont be able to continue researching it until you buy the things its been moved behind.
2 Likes
So far I rather like these changes, yes I think some of the placements are odd but overall I don’t have a problem with them so long as it makes vehicles easier to research.
Though I do have to wonder will the required amount of vehicles to purchase and unlock a new ranked change in some of the trees?
I really like seeing folders being used more extensively, this is great and hopefully would help reduce the overall grind. The main issue I have, and that has been pointed out already by a few people, is how things were ordered. It feels somewhat arbitrary and there are some nonsensical foldered aircraft, while other aircraft are not foldered like they probably should be. US props are a great example of this, as the aircraft are honestly all over the place (ex: the F4U-4B being with the F6F-5N is really odd, shouldn’t it be with the F4U-4?). There are some cases where there are aircraft like the P-51C which should stay in rank 3 given its capabilities, but have been moved down to rank 2. Meanwhile, aircraft like the F-80s and F-104s aren’t foldered when they very easily could be - the restriction on vehicles needed to progress through ranks prevents people grinding too quickly to top tier, anyways.
These concerns are mainly focused on the US air tree but I think it’s applicable to all the trees to some extent.
6 Likes
The two F6f variants are separated by 2 ranks, it makes no sense.
Like what even is this progression?
(Not complaining about less grind, for the record)
8 Likes
I love the sprit of these changes, but there are just so many confusing or nonsensical folders. Most of them are fine, but some just make no sense while others could be tweaked to be more logical.
Selection of folders that I find to be nonsensical and could be redone
Aviation
USA
P-26
The P-26 (M2) is the best of all three P-26s currently in the research tree. In my opinion, its position in the research tree (as well as its reserve status) should be swapped with the P-26A.
P-51C-10 and P-51 + P-51D-5 Folder
In terms of in-game performance, the P-51 and P-51C are much closer to each other than either is to the P-51D-5. In my opinion, the group should be P-51 and P-51C together at Rank 2, while the P-51D-5 remains where it is at Rank 3.
F6F-5
Compared to the F4U-1D, the F6F-5 is equal or higher in Battle Rating in all modes, so it should come after the F4U-1A/D group.
F4U-1C and F6F-5N
The F4U-1C is also higher than or equal to in BR as the F6F-5N in all game modes, and it would make more sense for the F4U-1C to be grouped with the F4U-4B, as they share similar armaments and are the same base model.
PB4Y-2, B-17G-60, and B-24D-25
Foldering the PB4Y-2 and B-24D-25 together would make more sense since they share an airframe and overall design. Moving the PB4Y-2 up to Rank IV to allow for that would not be an egregious change, either.
Germany
Fw 190 A/D
It would be more appropriate, considering Battle Ratings and design similarities, if the Fw 190 A-5 and Fw 190 A-5/U12 were in a folder together, while the Fw 190 D-9 and Fw 190 D-12 were in a folder together, as they are currently. The Fw 190 A-8 could either be placed in the Fw 190 A-5 folder or placed separately.
USSR
MiG-3
Keeping the MiG-3s all in one folder makes more sense in terms of progression, even if the MiG-3-15 is lower in BR than some late-model I-16s.
MiG-19/MiG-21
Although I understand why this was done, as they perform relatively similarly in Air battles, I think this grouping would be better served if an additional MiG-19 and early MiG-21 variant were added and two separate MiG-19 and MiG-21 folders were made instead.
La-200/La-15
The flight performance and usage of these aircraft is very different from each other, they aren’t similar enough to warrant a folder.
Su-7
In my opinion this should be a folder, these two aircraft are more similar than the La-200 and La-15, for example.
UK
Nimrod
Why not just folder them?
Brigand/Whirlwind
These two vehicles share very little in common as their in-game functionality is completely different. The Brigand is a heavy, somewhat cumbersome strike aircraft, while the Whirlwind is an interceptor/heavy fighter.
Japan
Ki-44/Ki-61
I hope this was just a mistake, and not the actual plan. It makes infinitely more sense to have te Ki-44-I and Ki-44-II grouped together and the Ki-61-I Ko and Ki-61-I Otsu grouped together.
J2M
While I understand why the J7W1 may have been moved to the heavy fighter line, moving the J2Ms makes absolutely no sense. They are highly maneuverable and powerful interceptor-fighters, with capabilities similar to the A6M family. There is no logical reason for them to be considered heavy/strike fighters, especially as they can only carry 60 kg bombs!
China
Ki-27/Ki-43
With the relatively low research costs at Rank 1, foldering these two aircraft is not that necessary, seeing as the Ki-43 is a decent amount better than the Ki-27.
CW-21
The BR, especially in RB, warrants it to be moved up to Rank 2.
P-40E/P-43A
This one I can’t really explain concisely, but the P-40 and P-43 aren’t that similar of aircraft.
J-6/J-7
See comments regarding the MiG-19 and MiG-21, as they follow the same general idea.
Italy
G.55/Re.2005
Rank 4 Italy is already quite sparse, I don’t think this folder is necessary from a progression standpoint.
France
VG.33/D.520
At Rank 2, a folder for unrelated (although admittedly relatively similar) vehicles isn’t that necessary.
VB.10
This would be a more reasonable folder compared to the previous. Although the VB.10.02 does improve on the VB.10C-1, the aircraft are still very similar in performance and capability.
F-100D
It would be more appropriate if this came after the F-86K. The F-100 isn’t a strike aircraft.
Sweden
No comment.
Israel
No comment.
Ground Forces
USA
M4/T26 and T25
Although I understand why, I would prefer that the T25 and M4/T26 were not foldered. Although a T25/M26 folder would make more sense, in my opinion the M26 is too “critical” to be foldered away.
M1A1 HC
While I also understand the goal of spreading top tier research across different lines, this just isn’t well-founded. I’m sure most players would be okay if the M1A1 HC came between the M1A1/IPM1 and M1A2/M1A2 SEP folders.
M19/M42
These should be foldered, the M42 offers nothing that the M19 does that makes it worth playing or researching.
Germany
Sturer Emil/Flak 37 Sfl.
These vehicles are so fundamentally different in terms of their performance and playstyle, they should be separated.
Marder/BMP-1/DF 105/SK-105/TAM
These should be regrouped as follows:
BMP-1
Marder A1(-) + Marder 1 A3
DF 105 + SK-105
TAM
RadKpfw 90/TAM 2C
I think these should be separate, but I don’t have a strong justification for why.
Pz. III B/E
Please can you flip the order so they’re alphabetical? 🥺
M 48s + KPz 70
It would make more sense if the Super M48 was foldered with the M48A2 GA2.
Leopard 2K
It would make more sense if it was placed before the Leopard 2 A4.
Panther F
While I agree with the Panther A/G folder, the Panther F is notable for its new turret and should be separate as a result.
SdKfz 222
It should be reclassified as a light tank and moved after the Pz. 38(t) family. Its performance is functionally identical to the SdKfz 234/1, but with less spawn cost and a different classification for arbitrary reasons.
Early Tank Destroyer line
The Marder III should be moved to Rank 2 and grouped with the Marder III H. The SdKfz 221/sPzB41 should be grouped with the Panzerjager I, if anything, while the “Sturmpanzer II” and StuG III A should be isolated.
Jagdpanzer IV/Hetzer
The group should be Jagdpanzer IV + Pz. IV/70, with the Jagdpanzer 38(t) coming before it.
Late Casemate TDs
Both of these folders should be eliminated, as all four vehicles play remarkably differently and share little in common.
USSR
KV-2
It should be moved to the SPG line, the same way the M4A3 (105) was.
T-26-4
Ditto with above, its functionality is more like a SPG than a light tank.
SU-85/M
This should be returned to how it currently is, the SU-85/85M folder makes more logical sense than whatever is going on here with the SU-85 between the SU-152 and ISU-152, and the SU-85M grouped with the ISU-122.
ISU-122S/SU-100
This folder also doesn’t make much sense to me, if anything the SU-100 could be grouped with the SU-85M.
ZiS-12 (94-KM)
It would be more appropriate if the 9-4KM/ZiS-12 were in a folder with the 72-K/GAZ MM.
UK
Caernarvon/Conqueror
Should be moved to the Heavy Tank line, ahead of the Vickers Mk. 1
Charioteer Mk. 7
Should be moved to the TD line, before the FV4005. Even though it was reclassified as a medium tank, it is something of a “spiritual successor” to the Avenger.
FV4202
Should be moved after the Centurion Mk. 3, as the designs are actually related to each other.
Crusader AA Mk II
Should be foldered witht he AEC Mk. II. Their firepower is identical, there is little gain from obtaining the Crusader compared to the AEC when it comes to fulfilling the AA role.
G6/Eland 90
This folder makes little sense, if anything the G6 could be moved to the SPG line.
Olifant/Rooikat
It would be much more logical to have the Rooikat 76 Mk 1D and Rooikat MTTD in one folder and have the Olifants in another.
Japan
M24
It is still unfairly placed at Rank 3 while other M24s are rank 2.
87RCV + 89FV
This folder is completely unnecessary. Not to mention, the in-game functionality of the two are rather different from each other.
M19/M42
Ditto with the American M19 and M42.
China
See the section below.
Italy
M24
Ditto with Japanese M24
France
AMX 30 B2/BRENNUS
This folder is unnecessary.
ARL 44
It has been previously demonstrated that Gaijin is willing to reclassify vehicles regardless of their historical designations. The ARL 44 should be counted as a heavy tank and moved to the heavy tank line accordingly.
ELC bis
Functionally the ELC is not that different from the AMX-13, it could be moved to the light tank line instead of being foldered with a vehicle that has no similarities.
Sweden
Strv 103/104/105
This change make it possible to bypass allthe Strv 103s, which should not be the case. Instead, the Strv 103 A and C should be foldered together, while the Strv 104 and 105 should be together.
Pvkv m/43 and Ikv103
It would make more sense for both Pvkv m/43 to be in a folder together and have the Ikv 103 separate, even if the Pvkv m/43s are somewhat different.
T-34/Pz IV
These should be moved to Rank 2 and removed from the folder. It is unfair to have these vehicles be rank 3 while ther Soviet and German counterparts are only Rank 2.
PT-76/Comet
These should also be unfoldered, they have nothing in common.
Israel
No comment.
Additionally, I am particularly intrigued by the way the Chinese Ground tech tree has been revised. This is a great chance to fix a lot of the illogical progressions in research by making a fifth research branch, but instead it has just shuffled around the existing problem to other locations.
Proposed Revision of Chinese Ground Force Tree
Vehicle Rank/Classification Changes
M113A1 (TOW)
Rank 5 → Rank 6
The Italian one is also Rank 6, so why not. It helps it folder better with the CM25 anyway.
M4A4 and M4A4 (1st PTG)
Rank 2 → Rank 3
Both the French and Italian ones are also Rank 3, so it makes sense and allows it to folder nicely with the M4A1 (75) W.
SdKfz 222
SPAA → Light Tank
Same with the German one, although the lack of APCR belts does make it weaker.
Folder Changes
PT-76
Moved to the “Premiums” section the same way other removed vehicles are.
Type 63/Type 62
Folder removed. While they play similarly, they the folder is not necessary and the vehicles are still distinct.
ZTS63/ZBD86
Folder removed. These vehicles are very dissimilar in ability and playstyle.
M113A1 TOW/CM25
Added to a folder. They are extremely similar to each other.
PTZ89
Removed from folder with CM25 as they share nothing in common.
PTL02/AFT09
Removed from folder. Although they share a chassis, their weaponry is nothing alike and demand different approaches altogether. If another ATGM carrier or wheeled tank destroyer were added, that would make a more appropriate folder.
M4A4/M4A1
Added to a folder. They are related being on the Sherman chassis, and have the same firepower.
M36/ISU-122
Removed from folder as they share nothing in common.
WZ1001/ZTZ99A
Moved into a folder with each other. The basic design principle of these tanks is the same, it makes sense to group these the same way the Leopard 2 A5 and 2 A6 get grouped.
A New Fifth Branch
The fifth branch is designed to properly accommodate the growing number of MBTs China has. Generally, their tanks can be divided into two main camps, those of the Type 59/69/79/80/88/85/96 family, and those of the Type 99 and prototypes. The upcoming MBT-2000, for example, is closely related to the ZTZ99, so placing them in the same lineage makes sense.
In order to properly flesh out the line (otherwise it would only have 4-5 tanks in it), I have suggested additional vehicles, namely the ZTZ99 (Phase 1), the 1226 and 1226 F2 prototype tanks, and the 111 heavy tank. The ZTZ99 Phase 1 has been anticipated by Chinese players for some time, meanwhile the 1226 and 1226F2 would help “pad” the research progression by preventing players from directly researching the MBT-2000 as its capabilities are similar to the ZTZ96A, which is moving to Rank VII. The 111 heavy tank is a possibly controversial addition due to doubts about its completion, but it would serve as a nice bridge between the heavy IS-2 and the prototype 1226.
The ZTZ96B was also added to the Type 59-96 line as a proper “capstone”, as it is the ultimate variant of that family of tanks thus far.
This allow allows the lower ranks to be split up between light, medium, and heavy vehicles. Although placing SPGs (SU-100, ISU-122/152) directly before and after the T-34 and IS-2, respectively, may seem strange, the design relationships between the vehicles makes it seem less awkward. It also allows the TD/SPG line to feel more unified, as the majority of those vehicles are mobile and lightly armored, unlike the SU-100 and ISU vehicles.
ROC Line
The other major change is to group all Republic of China vehicles into one line, excluding TDs and SPAA. Although the difference between an M36 and M48, or an M18 versus an M4 is rather strange, they all share similar design principles as they are all American in origin. Most importantly, all the vehicles included in that line are played like traditional tanks, and not SPGs. Even if the M36 is an open-topped tank destroyer, the playstyle is much more similar to a medium tank like the T-34 or M4 than a SPG like the SU-100 or ISU-122 due to its turret. The addition of the M41A3 was also done to ease the gap between the M18 and M48.
Addendum
The suggested vehicle additions (111, 1226, 1226F2, ZTZ99 (Phase 1), ZTZ96B, and M41A3) is far from an exhaustive list and not meant to encompass all vehicles that I think have a place in the game. These were only the ones I deemed to be most important to the structure of my revised research tree, and there may well be better options or other locations where new vehicles are required.
Ultimately, I think this proposal does a better job of streamlining the research tree while also future-proofing it for more vehicle additions (e.g. ZBD86A could be foldered with ZBD86, more Type 62 and Type 63 prototypes have plenty of breathing space at Rank 2/3, and more breathing space in Rank VI for later Type 59-family vehicles like the 59B, 79, 80, 85, and 88). I hope that at least some of these suggestions are considered to etter-optimize the Chinese ground tree.
The majority of my suggested changes involve removing of folders that were created for this specific update. However, I think that this should indicate a need for a general reduction to vehicle RP costs, rather than simply letting vehicles be ignored altogether.
Additionally, I would like consideration for the removal of the end-of-line RP cost hike that applies to the last vehicle in each research branch. It is unnecessary and only punishes players who have already achieved the highest they can in a given nation.
10 Likes
So, in the Italian tech tree the Centauro 105 R will be foldered, but I have over half of it researched, if I stop now will the update finish the research for me?
pls answer this
Also will the silver lions cost go down for foldered vehicles, if so what about vehicles I have unlocked but not purchased that will be foldered?
If it’s over the half way point, you’ll get it.
1 Like
The Good: Japan. I am going to kiss you Gaijin, the revised Japanese trees are an incredible revamp. It makes so much more sense now and has been a long time coming. Thank you!
The Bad: Lowering of vehicle ranks. I can appreciate the balance that needs to be taken between grind/number of vehicles/logical progression. It’s probably a tough position to be in! That being said, like the lowering of the Pz IVs from Rank 3 to Rank 2 a while back, it can be very disruptive to the player base.
Lowering vehicles from Rank 4 to Rank 3 is not great. What is even less great is lowering vehicles from Rank 3 to Rank 2. I would prefer that a vehicle stays unfoldered in a higher rank rather than having it be foldered into a lower one.
5 Likes
wait foldered vehicles will go down in research cost?
that would be nice, I’ll get the Fishbet F-13 without further research then
Yes.
So why not suggest moving the MiG-15/MiG-15bis, all 50cal Sabres to rank 6 as well?
Both things are pretty close to the MiG-17 and has close BR so, from what you say, you can justify the increase of all aircraft around BR 8.3 and 8.7 to rank 6.
Not having the same rank just because they are from different nations is just ridiculous, and as long as Gaijin is doing the “foldering aircraft in similar BRs” thing, the F-2 Sabre and MiG-17 should share the same rank as the 50cal Sabres/MiG-15bis. If a new player gets a MiG-17 after getting a MiG-15, it just makes them think it is almost the same aircraft. (although it is in fact far better you know).
It is not literally a nerf.
That list says Yak-30 that is BR8.7 will move up to Rank 6 btw lmao
There are a lot of other vehicles for which I saw the rank reduced.
Please rethink this, as this makes it HARDER to grind for things like Daily Tasks, which require a vehicle of a certain rank… example, I used to use the Chinese Ki-43-III Ko (BR 3.0 in RBs) for the easy tasks, which used to be Rank II and now is Rank I… Same for almost the whole Italian strike tree, like SM.91 and up, which was moved down a whole rank… This makes a task which you could do with BR 3.0 to one of BR 4-ish now.
And seriously - a BR 3.0 vehicle in RANK ONE?
2 Likes
Pardon, did you reply to the wrong comment?
I worte that the 3 planes should NOT be lowered from rank 3 (where they currently are) to rank 2 as seen in gaijins list.
And for the Bf 110 C-6 to go from rank 2 (where it is currently at) to go to Rank 3 or lower its Br as it doesnt have any advantage over the tree planes.
I never even mentioned rank 1?
Yes, I also dislike the lowering of ranks, just added more examples.
2 Likes
I’m glad to see the changes, but I think Leopard 2K shouldn’t be placed after T72.
Leopard 2K is a prototype of Leopard 2 which developed from Leopard 1 while using technology from KPz-70. In that case, I think it should be placed between Leopard 1 and Leopard 2A4 or to be folded with KPz-70. Both of the choices seem more reasonable than placing Leo2K after T72.
1 Like