1.2 mach x 1.05 = 1.26 mach
the structual limit of the airframe and the top speed it achives are 2 different things
- personal attacks instead of directing the line of questioning to the argument is not ad hominem
Sure my guy.
No the issue was that the claimed maximum ASL mach is not 1.06 with 1.2 being used as a claimant to that being false.
You have still yet to prove that mach 1.06 is the correct ASL mach for the F/A-18 airframe.
Good thing thats not the wing rip limit as I have highlighted, you don’t even get the rip warning until mach 1.27.
Indeed, however, you are going to find that most aircraft in game have performance metrics that line up with their NATOPs limit and not the 1g limit.
As already highlighted above, the F-15E’s 1g limit with the aforementioned loadout is mach 1.2, the aircraft achieves mach 1.25 in stable flight, which is it’s NATOPs limit with the same loadout.
Gaijin by their own admission don’t model the drag of external stores very well at all, so you get discrepancies when comparing aircraft with stores. They also tend to accept aircraft as “good enough” if they are within a few percent of their IRL values
However as a general rule aircraft in game perform close to their 1g limit speed (which for some aircraft is also their never exceed speed), and where they don’t reports to make them match their IRL 1g limit speed get accepted regularly.
The claim that Gaijin as a rule always model aircraft to be able to achieve their IRL never exceed limit speed in level flight (regardless of what their 1g limit speed may be) is ridiculous and demonstrably false if you ever fly the vast majority of aircraft in game.
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Gaijin and consistency are in an abusive relationship
I mean in this specific case I don’t see any reason why it should be the case. There’s no reason all aircraft could reach their vne in level flight, both the level top speed and vne depend on many factors
I’m going to hard disagree with that as I can just start machinegunning out airframes from the US tree that do not abide by such limitations, I already gave you the F-15E, I can also just start adding in stuff from other trees that also do not abide by similar limitations, but the list is already long enough.
Then those making the reports must have a very large amount of work ahead of them.
I never stated that the actual never exceed speed is what the aircraft are modeled to, I stated that they are modeled to their NATOPs operating limit speed, that and the airframe’s NES are totally different things, the former is designed for continual safe operation and can be exceeded if deemed needed in testing or otherwise, it is not a hard limit like the actual NES of a airframe (which does still have a margin attached to it).
As already stated above, I can just test fly pretty much 7/8ths of the US tree that is jet powered and bypass their NATOPs limits on the deck outside of a dive sooooooo.
From what I’m starting to understand now it might be a case of the community further throwing a wrench into whatever small amount of consistency gaijin had to begin with too.
Please do. However consider the following before providing any such examples:
- Gaijin don’t model store drag properly meaning aircraft with stores often over-perform compared to the 1g achievable speed in the manual if the manual lists the aircraft as having significant stores.
- Many aircraft have an achievable speed in level flight which exceeds their limit speed, so in such examples you would expect the aircraft to reach / exceed its limit speed in game.
In real life some aircraft can achieve their operational limit speed in level flight, so those aircraft will also be able to do so in game. These aircraft are modelled to their 1g flight envelope, it just so happens that their 1g achievable speed is greater than or equal to their operational limit speed. Giving you the impression that they are modelled to achieve their limit speed.
Ok let’s give this a go then. I’ll look at the level flight speed at sea level for one aircraft from each family, for as many as I can be bothered to do. I’ll start at the start of the left most jet tree and then move across to the right after finishing each column of the tree. Note that I’ve used the term “flight manual” for convenience but sometimes I’ve had to use other documents (SACs etc.) depending on what information is available for each aircraft.
F-80 Shooting Star Family
| Aircraft Examined | Flight Manual Limit Speed | Flight Manual 1g Speed (SL) | In Game Speed (SL) | Verdict |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| P-80A-5 | 580 mph | Not specified | 547 mph | In game level flight speed less than limit speed, IRL 1g speed unknown |
F-104 Starfighter Family
| Aircraft Examined | Flight Manual Limit Speed | Flight Manual 1g Speed (SL) | In Game Speed (SL) | Verdict |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| F-104A | 750 kts | >750 kts | 781 kts | 1g level flight speed exceeds limit speed both IRL & in game |
F-5 Tiger II Family
| Aircraft Examined | Flight Manual Limit Speed | Flight Manual 1g Speed (SL) | In Game Speed (SL) | Verdict |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| F-5E | 710 kts | Mach 1.04 (688 kts @ SL) | 690 kts | In game level flight speed matches IRL 1g speed & is less than limit speed |
F-16 Fighting Falcon Family
| Aircraft Examined | Flight Manual Limit Speed | Flight Manual 1g Speed (SL) | In Game Speed (SL) | Verdict |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| F-16A Block 5 | 800 kts | >800 kts | 813 kts | 1g level flight speed exceeds limit speed both IRL & in game |
F-84 ThunderJet Family
| Aircraft Examined | Flight Manual Limit Speed | Flight Manual 1g Speed (SL) | In Game Speed (SL) | Verdict |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| F-84B-26 | Mach 0.8 (529 kts @ SL) | 510 kts | 514 kts | In game level flight speed almost matches IRL 1g speed & is less than limit speed |
F-86 Sabre Family
| Aircraft Examined | Flight Manual Limit Speed | Flight Manual 1g Speed (SL) | In Game Speed (SL) | Verdict |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| F-86F-25 | 600 kts | Mach 0.9 (595 kts @ SL) | 596 kts | In game level flight speed matches IRL 1g speed, which is almost the same as the limit speed |
F-100 Super Sabre Family
| Aircraft Examined | Flight Manual Limit Speed | Flight Manual 1g Speed (SL) | In Game Speed (SL) | Verdict |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| F-100D | 700 kts | 650 kts | 657 kts | In game level flight speed almost matches IRL 1g speed & is less than limit speed |
F-4 Phantom II Family
| Aircraft Examined | Flight Manual Limit Speed | Flight Manual 1g Speed (SL) | In Game Speed (SL) | Verdict |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| F-4J | 750 kts | Mach 1.15 (760 kts @ SL) | 757 kts | In game level flight speed almost matches IRL 1g speed & is higher than limit speed |
F-15 Eagle Family
| Aircraft Examined | Flight Manual Limit Speed | Flight Manual 1g Speed (SL) | In Game Speed (SL) | Verdict |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| F-15A | 800 kts | >800 kts | 786 kts | Aircraft appears to be under-performing in speed |
F2H Banshee Family
| Aircraft Examined | Flight Manual Limit Speed | Flight Manual 1g Speed (SL) | In Game Speed (SL) | Verdict |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| F2H-2 | 500 kts | 507 kts | 504 kts | In game level flight speed almost matches IRL 1g speed & is higher than limit speed |
F9F Panther / Cougar Family
| Aircraft Examined | Flight Manual Limit Speed | Flight Manual 1g Speed (SL) | In Game Speed (SL) | Verdict |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| F9F-2 | Unknown | 525 kts | 533 kts | In game level flight speed slightly exceeds IRL 1g speed, limit speed unknown (can’t find a manual) |
F3H Demon Family
| Aircraft Examined | Flight Manual Limit Speed | Flight Manual 1g Speed (SL) | In Game Speed (SL) | Verdict |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| F3H-2 | Unknown | 627 kts | 533 kts | In game level flight speed matches IRL 1g speed, limit speed unknown (can’t find a manual) |
F-8 Crusader Family
| Aircraft Examined | Flight Manual Limit Speed | Flight Manual 1g Speed (SL) | In Game Speed (SL) | Verdict |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| F8U-2 (F-8C) | 800 kts | Mach 1.0 (661 kts @ SL) | 659 kts | In game level flight speed almost matches IRL 1g speed & is less than limit speed |
F/A-18 Hornet Family
| Aircraft Examined | Flight Manual Limit Speed | Flight Manual 1g Speed (SL) | In Game Speed (SL) | Verdict |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| F/A-18C Late | Mach 1.1 (727 kts @ SL) | Mach 1.07 (708 kts @ SL) | 709 kts | In game level flight speed matches IRL 1g speed & is less than limit speed |
F-14 Tomcat Family
| Aircraft Examined | Flight Manual Limit Speed | Flight Manual 1g Speed (SL) | In Game Speed (SL) | Verdict |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| F-14A Early | Unknown | Mach 1.2 (793 kts @ SL) | 791 kts | In game level flight speed matches IRL 1g speed, limit speed unknown (can’t find a manual) |
So that’s the first three columns of the jet tree done. It certainly looks like the vast majority of aircraft are in fact are conforming very closely to their attainable 1g level flight speed, according to various documents, rather than their operational limit speed. In fact out of all the aircraft I tested only ONE exceeded their achievable 1g level flight speed. Hopefully we can put this matter to bed now?
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cries in f18e that is subsonic in that f18c diagram
yeah and here i thought we went past the time of sub sonic attackers
i woulnt mind i like the av8b+ but at 14.3 with a less than 0.95 twr hell na
but the f18c has allegedly a very trash radar so that is also not an option
also remember gaijin wanted to put the f18e at 14.7 for reasons
they are out there and can be found, iam not certain if they can be posted tho, becasue of how the US handels the whole thing of Iran having tomcats themselfs
so iam not going to take the risk and am just going to tell you what it says
F-14A NATOPS speed limit: ~1.03 Mach
Design speed limit: 1.4 Mach
(both at sea level)
its notable that some of the older graphs dont show the NATOPS speed limit
you mean ingame or IRL?
Ingame ofc
In RL there is a f18c version with the f18e radar
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i didnt really have any issues with the F-18 radar in war thunder
it performs pretty well imo (ignoring ESA radars ofc)
AN/APG-65 is THE best mechanical radar at 12.7 and AN/APG-73, while not AESA, remains workable.
nah clearly the N019 is way better /s
12.7 maybe but I am talking 14.0
Thats why i included both AN/APG-65 and 73. And as I said, dont know what youve heard, AN/APG-73 remains entirely usable radar for its BR as it is just evolution of the AN/APG-65.
Hell, id say i prefer it to CAPTOR-M with how bad the TWS drift was on it.
BR for BR it’s infinitely better than CAPTOR M, CAPTOR M feels so bad you’re basically blindfolded compared to everyone else
You know, I actually got half way through doing my own test flights to disprove you when I realized you just did the work for me already in conjunction with my previous image of the F-15E.
You yourself admit that multiple aircraft exceed their 1G limits or are a ways below them, namely the F8C, F-15A, F9F (F-4J is behind it’s 1G limit by .01 mach like the F/A-18C), F-16A, both F-104s, yes the C also flies very similarly, just with a tiny bit more speed, and of course the F-15E from my end which easily powers through it’s 1G limit like its nothing, even with additional stores.
Aside as well your F/A-18C document read is incorrect for your mach conversions, 1.1 ASL is 734 knots, not 727, and the listed speed for the 18C is 725 knots, aka mach 1.08, so it is indeed slow, which is the actual topic of this thread.
I would like to know who would be claiming that? I’ve found the C’s radar to be very nice, its no AESA but very good nevertheless.