F-5C Flares need to be removed. It is FICTIONAL

Can you be any more wrong, seriously at least try to get things right.

It has 2x M39 20mm cannons, with 560 rounds split between them, they are functionally equivalent to the M24 and T-160 found on the F-100 and F-86F-2 respectively, yes it may use the same ammo as the M61 Vulcan but has a fraction the burst mass( ~1/8th the M61 per gun, using the same ammo), in comparison to other airframes it trades away half its burst mass in exchange for a hand full of additional rounds per gun, and subsequently more time on target, depending on your aim, and luck with spread this can be advantage, though you are far more likely to get hits, or miss entirely.

Uhh, you do get this thread is about the F-5C, not the F-5E right? The AGM-65 is exclusive to the tech tree variant and is absolutely on par with similar attackers in the 10.7~12.0 bracket, though is lacking CCIP means the pilot needs to actually put in the work to get the delivery profile(s) down right. and the most impactful A2G ordnance the F-5C has access to (for GRB) is obviously the AGM-12, which is carried by a number of airframes significantly below it in BR so they aren’t anything special, in terms of Fighter bombers either F-8 would be far superior option especially the F-8E for a slight increase in BR the expanded capacity is well worth it.

Not saying there is is absolutely nothing questionable things going on in relation to the DM, but this is additionally contributed to by a number of factors outside the DM(mostly to do with how HE / fragmentation damage is modeled), though its not in anyway exclusive to the F-5’s either.

Does it have a blatant impact on the survivability with the F-5’s? Yes.

Should something be done? Yes.

Its exactly what it was designed to do, and it pretty much conforms to knowns specs. The thing with the F-5’s especially is that their performance drops off significantly at lower speed, so instead of playing to their advantage you need to energy trap them like you would a MiG–17, -19 or -21 in most aircraft.

Its an advantage inherent to the airframe, not much that can be done about that, though taking any ordnance beyond the AIM-9’s should probably incur greater drag than it does, but is partially limited by Gaijin using generic drag data for stores instead of actual numbers, and additionally simplified implementation so drag is only accurate in a narrow speed band.

additionally as you have noted that The F-5’s performance falls off sharply as altitude increases, so surely there must be some way to use that against them.

Simply don’t take low Pk missile shots, and that isn’t an issue. Wait for them to focus on doing something or be distracted / low energy, most missiles at their BR won’t track them though maneuvers, and really shouldn’t be relied on to win fights outright but to force a response or catch someone out from an unexpected angle. During Vietnam Sidewinders only had a Pk of 14%, and the SSPK was even lower still, and practically none of the aircraft they went up against had flares.

A fault of how they have implemented a number of important things backwards and using various deliberate simplifications, generalizations and omissions in their implementation of the interplay between Flares, seekers Throttle settings, exhaust temperature and spectral radiance and generally gone about Missiles & Sensors as a whole.

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So you’re not playing in the area? How can you know if the US is winning there? My last 5 games at that BR with the US were a win. And I am absolutely seeing the F-5C winning every dog fight, I just watched my team mate get 7 kills while we were out manned.

Who has BVR that even comes close to what the US has below 10.7? MOST AIRCRAFT DONT HAVE BVR BESIDES THE US. The only ones that come to mind are the mig-21s that’s really all I can think of. We have a lot of vehicles in that BR range that don’t have flares and some without even aim-9Bs.

The US has the most jets with countermeasures with Russia maybe coming in 2nd place, and I’m not just talking about premiums.

Im still not sure what your point actually is, you want the F-5C to go down in BR? I’m not for that at all, because it does so well in game. The F-5C has non historical upgrades, my only issue is that they pick and choose when to give non historical buffs and nerfs.

It simutaneously needs to go down, as it does have a relatively limited loadout, and needs to go up as it has CMs at a BR where a lot dont. I know from experience fighting them in the Harrier Gr1 that I felt distinctively at a disadvantage when fighting them due the CM difference, but at the same time , I saw simularities and would not want to face anything of significantly higher BR in the F5C. Until such time that we get a BR decompression, and everything squished between BR 9-12 is spread out across at least 6 or 7 BRs, then there is little that can be done.

Whether or not it should or should not have CMs is a debate that could last and likely will last for years to come. I personally think based upon the evidence that they could have gone either way and been technically right. But chose to give it CMs as its a premium.

It certainly is a strong jet at its BR, there is no denying that, but I think its strong because it seems relatively easy to use, where others, especially other premiums are far more technically challenging. Harrier Gr1 for example, lacks the CMs, but instead has the stronger but far harder to use SRAAMs, and learning to VIFF takes a lot of effort and time to learn. That makes the F5C more common as well.

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Limited load out isn’t really a reason for it to be moved down, just look at the Sagittario and Ariete. Both of them are actually one trick ponies with no AAMs or CMs and absolutely zero CAS ability or any advanced system but they still sit at a BR range where they will see jets that out class then in most aspects.

I’m really not sure how being an easy to use jet is a downside, then again I saw people complaining about the AV-8s, saying that they were terrible. The same people were carrying bombs and hugging the ground instead of flying high and launching aim-9Gs from far enough away to get a couple of easy kills and then rearming.

When compared to something like the Harrier Gr3 with twice as many 9Gs at a lower BR for example, but yes, you are right, it is stronger than others

It’s not, im saying that because its an easy jet, its easier to do well, and thus appear a lot stronger than it might be. An equal jet that is far harder, would take a lot more skill and effort to fly equally well and thus may appear less OP

I just wanna say, I don’t think the F-5C is OP. My issue is with them giving it an unhistorical buff and people defending it while saying others should get no such buffs. I’m also not a fan of its tanky DM but that’s neither here nor there.

On those accounts im on the fence. Like I said, I think whether or not it could or could not carry flares is not entirely clear and can be debated either way. I do not know enough to comment either way. As for its DM, yeah, i’ve seen many a F5 survive and SRAAM or 9G where it should not have.

The issue for me, at least, is that we also have vehicles in game that could or could not use stuff and even with proof they don’t get it.

I just don’t like how strict they can get with some historical stuff and how loose they can be with others.

Just like with the F-104G for China and the F-104 J for Japan. The vehicles could have used CMs but they won’t give them for ? Reasons

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Joke a side. No more bs post from me.

I would like to see F-5C will get removing CMs if it wasn’t historical but, not in current meta because F-5C without CMs is absolutely not 10.3BR material and if F-5C moved down to 10.0BR, some aircrafts would be unplayable even more such as Lansens and Hunter FGA.9.

BTW, Didn’t smin1080p or someone mentioned that why F-5C got CMs in old forum back then?

If ROCAF got used F-104Gs from West Germany that was operated in German Marines, they can get flares but, they didn’t iirc. Also, F-104J and F-1 functioned with chaff in the airbrakes so, I don’t think it can makes modeled.

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Found You!😃

I’m about to list every 10.0 & 10.3 jet that’s faster than F-5C on the deck. Ready?

Mirage 3C, Mirage 3E, Mirage 5F & Nesher, Mirage 3CJ, Mig-21MF, Mig-21SMT, Draken D, AJ37. You know, most.

Tornado is faster than all F-5s by a minimum of 0.1 mach on the deck.
F-5s don’t have Vulcans, Mavericks don’t matter outside ground, damage model is fine.
Maneuverability is meta because it’s a high AOA wing design which makes it SLOWER than all other supersonics.

Countermeasures are fine, and getting IR locks are fine. It’s a slower jet so the airframe doesn’t get as hot.

F-5s are not OP. F-5Es have correct countermeasures regardless.
You can ALWAYS run from F-5s in supersonic aircraft.

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I’m glad you’re against removing the F-5C’s countermeasures now.
There are no non-historical buffs or nerfs. You have zero evidence.

BTW, the F-104J’s countermeasures aren’t usable without opening the airbrakes. It’s better just not to add that feature that would only be used on one aircraft.

I like how you are fine with the F-5C having ahistorical countermeasures, absurd damage models along with low IR signature, but you draw the line at the F-104J getting countermeasures because you would have to open the air brakes for like 0.5 seconds.

It wouldn’t even be an entirely new mechanic, we already have plenty of vehicles which cannot use flaps/drogue chute (or whatever else) if they have ordnance attached and/or modification eqipped. I don’t see how this would be any different

You can ALWAYS run from F-5s in supersonic aircraft.

Yeah, if you have countermeasures, good thing the 3C, 5F, Nesher, 3CJ and Draken D all have them, right?

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Flaps and drag chutes are not countermeasures. There is no code in WT that prevents countermeasures from firing.
BTW, there is no “ahistorical” countermeasures on any aircraft.
If you can’t dodge an Aim-9E in the listed vehicles I can help you learn.

You’re really latching into the F-104J thing yet you keep ignoring the Chinese F-104G.

What I’m not ok with is gaijin choosing when to be historically accurate and when to ignore accuracy to nerf/buff some vehicles. Either you hold all vehicles to a very strict set of rules or don’t.

Don’t pick and choose who to buff, just because a certain vehicle belongs to a major nation and makes them a lot of money that doesn’t mean it just get artificial buffs.

Also, I’ve gotta say, if you don’t think the F-5C is one of the best jets in that BR range…I don’t know what to say. You can’t possibly think the thing is struggling? The US tends to get some really good BR hand outs in air. Just look at the F-104A/C those things are crazy undertiered but no one says anything because 9.3 and above is are already a black hole.

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Gaijin doesn’t choose historical accuracy. Real life nations do.
Gaijin has never picked & chose what to buff, which means your wish is fulfilled.
And no, F-5C is not top 5 at 10.3.
Mirage 3C/E, Mig-21MF & SMT, and AJ-37 are the top 5 10.3s in game.

the 3c is a terrible aircraft 10.3 with no flares American f8e is far superior

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A few things the ROCAF F-104G could have to improve it is if it gets the CD-1 chaff dispenser, LAU-3 rocket launcher (to act as flares), and AIM-9P4’s.

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what about the jaguar gr1a