Everything wrong with the Mirage IIIS (and Discussion)

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Mirage IIIS C.70

History

Breaking into the supersonic age of jet-fighters, the Swiss air force was bound to complement their aging subsonic Hawker Hunters with a newer, more powerful, more capable supersonic fighter aircraft.

To choose the next fighter aircraft, the Swiss air force held a competition and tested multiple options: the SAAB J-35, the Lockheed Martin F-104, the Grumman F-11F-1F, the Dassault Mirage III and the Fiat G.91.

In the end, the Dassault Mirage III came out on top and 100 aircraft were ordered by the Swiss government in 1961. Due to exploding costs and to so called “Mirage Affair”, the number of vehicles was considerably cut down to 54, then consisting of 36 of the fighter-interceptor variant and 18 of the reconnaissance variant. Licensed production in Switzerland by the Eidgenössischen Flugzeugwerk Emmen (today RUAG Aviation) began and designated the Mirage IIIS and Mirage IIIRS respectively, the new aircraft entered service in 1966.

The Mirage IIIS wouldn’t be a true Swiss aircraft however, without having hefty modification made to it. Those modifications were in large parts responsible for the aforementioned large increase in procurement costs.

The cockpit was changed to Swiss standards, the avionics changed from French to American.

Compared to the standard French Mirage IIIC, the Mirage IIIS had the following modifications made:

  • changed cockpit
  • the radar
  • the avionics
  • the armament
  • structural changes and reinforcements
  • folding nose cone
  • JATO Capabilities

The Mirage IIIS C.70 in War Thunder

The Mirage IIIS is currently placed at rank VII between the Hunter Mk.58A and the F-5E in the Swiss subtree of the German tech tree. It has a BR of 10.3 is all gamemodes.

There are a lot of issues that were found with the Mirage IIIS. Some of them were already adressed, most of them are still open, and some were added (yes, new issues were added) on the way to the live-server.

Open issues:

  • Missing Radar capabilities
    The correct radar, the TARAN 18, was implemented during the dev-server.
    It is still missing key features.
    Mirage IIIS C.70 wrong radar ranges and search modes - accepted

  • Missing ballistic computers
    The Mirage IIIS had ballistic computers for guns, rockets and bombs.
    Somehow they were removed and not added back yet.
    [DEV] Mirage IIIS C.70 missing ballistic computer - not a bug
    [Report WIP]

  • Missing EEGS
    as correwctly assumed, the Mirage is missing EEGS.
    Mirage IIIS C.70 missing EEGS - accepted

  • Incorrect Sight
    Mirage IIIS C.70 wrong sight graphics - accepted

  • Missing AS-30 Nord (Flz Lwf LB 66)
    The Mirage IIIS could carry the AS-30 Nord missile. It had it during the dev-server. Somehow it was removed in the update. Reasons unknown.
    [Report WIP]

  • Missing and wrong droptanks under fuselage and wings
    During the dev-server the Mirage had 2 1700 l underwing-tanks, the same the Mirage IIIE has.
    Switzerland used smaller underwing droptanks and also a central droptank under the fuselage.
    They removed the 1700l droptanks and added the centerline droptank.
    The Mirage IIIS is still missing:
    – 1x 1100l centerline droptanks
    – 2x 500l underwing tanks
    New report:
    Mirage IIIS C.70 incorrect droptank - accepted
    Old report:
    [DEV] Mirage IIIS C.70 missing (and inaccurate) droptanks - accepted

Fuel Tanks

0479518-3304586776
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MG_Mirage III S_Swiss Air Force_J-2313_03.05.21_LSZC_6325
MG_Mirage III S_Swiss Air Force_J-2313_03.05.21_LSZC_63251200×800 702 KB

Fixed issues:

If you know something else wrong with the Mirage IIIS, feel free to comment down below.

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I see the report on the SIWA’s was accepted, and while that apparentl y happened, I’ve writen a quite elaborate further explanation on Mirage SIWA combos in your report: Community Bug Reporting System

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Note that the use of JATO rockets was only possible without weapons and minimal internal fuel.

The ide never was to operate from short (or damaged) runways, but simply to relocate aircraft that were marooned aircraft on bombed airfields, with just enough fuel to get to another, still undamaged airfield.

I’ve whitnessed several Mirage III JATO takeoff’s myself. Very impressive and loud!!!

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The Swiss Mirages used 500 Liter FLUNT (FLügel-UNter-Tank, “underwing tank”) and 730 Liter or 1100 Liter RUNT (RUmpf-UN-ter-Tank, "under fuselage tank).

  • The FLUNT were either mounted fix (AMD FLUNT) or droppable (IMI FLUNT), and suited for supersonic flight.
  • The 730 Liter tank (IMI RUNT) was droppable and suited for supersonic flight.
  • The 1100 Liter Tank (AMD RUNT) was droppable, but only cleared for up to max. Mach 1.2

While usually the Mirage IIIS was equipped with the fixed AMD FLUNT earlier, in the latest phase of their service, the FLUNTS were often omitted and only the 730 Liter RUNT carried, to increase the Mirage’s performance and improve their change in dogfights agains more modern aircraft, mot commonly the F/A-18 Hornets, against which they sparred often (and were not easy prey!). The large 1100 Liter runts were mostly used for ferry flights over longer distances.

Little anectode: In the Swiss AF there was the Mach 2 club, and a proud member only became who ever flew the Mirage over Mach 2. According to a personal friend and ex Mirage test pilot, there were two ways to get the Mirage IIIS to the required altitude and speed: Either you flew it completely clean, or with two FLUNT. Funnily enough, when returning, both aircaft with and without FLUNT had about the same amount of fuel remaining after those very short sorties: The ones with FLUNT had more fuel, but the increased drag of the FLUNT practically ate up the whole amount they had in excess over the clean aircraft!

Spoiler

grafik

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@Schindibee do you happen to know or have some way of finding out what RWR was included in the C.70 upgrade?

This this report: Community Bug Reporting System the mod is correct in that the IP-1310/ALR was just the azimuth display. But that still leaves the question as to what RWR was actually installed and I have not been able to find anything on the matter.

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We got some feedback to the drop tank report, saying some more info on the tank themselves would be welcome.
So we probably need something more ‘official’.

Also where is the picture from?

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@DiamondCraftLP @Schindibee

So, I believe that everything has reported and accepted for the Mirage IIIS C.70

[DEV] Mirage IIIS C.70 missing (and inaccurate) droptanks
[DEV] Mirage IIIS C.70 inaccurate camouflage
[DEV] Mirage IIIS C.70 missing JATO capabilities / boosters
[DEV] Mirage IIIS C.70 incorrect AIM-9 model
[DEV] Mirage IIIS missing the Flz Lwf 63/80
[DEV] Mirage IIIS C.70 incorrect radar

…Except for the RWR, which I still haven’t been able to find any information on.

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Could possibly be the AN/APR-39 as it has been installed on a Mirage III:

image
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But in any case, I’m pretty sure it will be an American system.

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I couldn’t find anything more either. The sources (mostly 3rd party websites) all mentioned the IP-1310/ALR, but since thats the display idk…

I remember reading in a comment somewhere that it should be the same RWR as the Swiss F-5 has? So the AN/ALR-46… But idk about the valitidy of that claim.

Have you gotten any info about the RWR from the manual @Schindibee?

Edit: Going off the naming of the RWR display in the shown system, the RWR must be an ALR RWR.

IP 1150/APR-39 → AN/APR-39

IP-1310/ALR → AN/ALR-??

example: the F-16 also uses the IP-1310/ALR display and uses an ALR RWR

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On it, got the original pilots manual which contains detailed info on the RWR.

Quite a few things have now been accepted, the manual I sent them via tech mods probably goes a long way to confirm the issues, so atm. I’m pretty hopeful we’ll see at least some improvements…

Anyone reported already the inoperability of the FALCO’s?

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they are not ready yet

https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/Ka0YMzZq2wIm

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Ok, collected the info on the AN/ALR-87 now from the MIRO’s pilot manual, report here, please support: [Dev] Mirage IIIS wrong RWR, should have AN/ALR-87 // Gaijin.net // Issues

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very nice!

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Forwarded.

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Splendid! Much appreciated!

Now on to the TARAN radar and navigation system. Sadly this is only covered in the second volumen of the MIRO’s pilot manual, and I only got volume 1 (but which mentions the TARAn in the index as well as the aircraft general description)…

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Hi, for the non-droppable 500L tank, do you know if it’s the same as on the French Mirage III? Because if it is, I have a source showing the installation of a non-droppable 500L on a 3E

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Excellent work on the RWR.

As for TARAN, there is a document here which explains some of these uses and specifications of the radar, I included it in my original report:

I think it better to wait until it’s actually implemented before making any further reports about it.

One thing I couldn’t determine however is if it had the ability to provide a gun lead on air targets. I believe it can do that for ground targets, but not sure for air.

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Well, the whole TARAN integration was largely responsible for the whole scandal that was called the “Mirage Affäre” which led to quite a few “rolling heads”, including then Federal Council Chaudet, and was a major cornerstone in the history of the Swiss Army.

The TARAN was specifically designed for the Swiss Mirage IIIS, based on the radar systems employed int he F-102 and F-106, which also used it specifically for the use in connection with the HM-55/AIM-26 Falcon missiles. The TARAN testing and integration was the reason why Swiss Mirages went to Holloman in the USA for a while, even.

IIRC the main difference to the preceding US system was the improved possibility to use the system for navigation (including a basic ground mapping or at least referencing method), ground attack capability and a by then ultra modern moving map display (I very much hope they somehow find a way to implement this as well, maybe as minimap MFD).

One can truly not mention TARAN without mentioning the Mirage IIIS as well, and vice versa!

image
image2560×3269 1.12 MB

(Note: image found on official archive page of the Swiss Governement…)

So far I found little technical info, but a whole collection of Government Documents in the archives that cover the Mirage IIIS/TARAN/HM-55 purchase and the accompanying political fallout.

Can’t get much more official that official government coverage, eh? = )

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The reports here, and the drop-tanks, are just for the Swiss Mirage IIIS. I am not familiar with the IIIE, but I don’t think France used these tanks on their Mirage IIIEs.

If the IIIE could also carry other tanks than the ones in game already, and you got a good source proving that, I would suggest making a seperate report about that.

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If you search for images of the IIIE, you will find a lot of images of underwing tanks that at the very least look very similar to the 500 liter tanks we used, like this one here:

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