Eurofighter vs Rafale battlefield

[Metaltank1990]

can someone tldr the essays i looked away for like an hour and there’s multiple pages of arguments

[DirectSupport]

Well, even if it would take days to compile and make sense of all of this data, it is better to either do that before making conclusions like some of the people have or just not make strong conclusions at all.

[H_ngma]

Direct support thinks the Rafale is fine and the reason for its statistical overperformance is better players. His proof is that french players tend to perform better in vehicles that are also found in other trees.

[I_MiikaL_I]

Title of this painting:

The logic of a frenchman

Absolutely tragic 😥

[Kir]

@DirectSupport

making conclusions like some of the people have or just not make strong conclusions at all

So, unless we spend a significant amount of time completing an arguably impossible task we aren’t allowed to make conclusions? That’s one way to shut down a discussion in bad faith.

Also, based on the matchmaking data assembled earlier, we already have anecdotal evidence that having the Rafale on your team or not has a notable influence of aircraft performance.

[Metaltank1990]

@DirectSupport

There does exist some problems with technical moderators being extremely critical of my reports, and even overriding each other in my reports, or in some cases shutting down my report stating I used a “restricted source” despite the source being freely available for the public in the US naval library.

They do this for literally everyone. Any report that looks vaguely official is a literal gamble on whether it gets shut for no reason.

@DirectSupport

Would this be accounting for playerbase of the tech tree given that the same vehicles in France that’s also available in the US tech tree have better stats?

Such as?

@DirectSupport

The sentiment I’m getting from this post is, MICA doesnt ever need a buff even after AIM-120D is added and maybe only fixed once AIM-260 is introduced.

On the assumption that they do with the 120D what they did with the 120C5 and make it a sidegrade at best, yeah.

@DirectSupport

we should also look at the playerbases behind the Rafale and other tech trees

Playerbases don’t get your winrate up to 70%. That’s simply not viable. The probability of that happening at random is nearly zero.

@DirectSupport

And if we cannot dismiss the possibility of experienced above average players switching to it

This is equally possible for the eurofighter, but such a mysterious increase did not occur. Similarly, if a significant majority of experienced players are switching to it wouldn’t that reinforce that it’s likely incredibly strong?

Additionally, hilariously enough, when players started switching to it the winrate actually dropped

never below 60% though. Funny that. The most recent increases align with the points at which the aircraft was majorly buffed. If it were a set of “experienced players flocking in” you’d expect either a constant increase or a sharp increase followed by it remaining mostly static - instead it increases with each buff, and then slowly drops as other people learn to work around it being able to just walk in and beat every other aircraft to death.

@DirectSupport

It isn’t inconvenient, its very much possible, easy to do, and can be understood. Refusing to look at readily available information that explains some of the performance factors without good reason doesn’t indicate a good-faith attempt at understanding what’s actually going on.

You are then free to compile a dataset and do so. It’s pretty inconvenient.

@DirectSupport

other half choose the EFT which is spread out over 3 trees

The vast majority of EFT players are on the German model. You are running on a false assumption that they are spread equally. Plus you can just average out the EFT winrates (which actually works against you because the GB one sits about 10% above the other two lol)

@DirectSupport

I suspect that people simply do not wish to do an hour of extra work to examine identical vehicles found in the French tech tree and others

This is much more than an hour of work. Refer to my above statement on compiling your own dataset.

@DirectSupport

Well, even if it would take days to compile and make sense of all of this data, it is better to either do that before making conclusions like some of the people have or just not make strong conclusions at all.

Statistically a 70% winrate is more than enough to make a conclusion that there is an advantage. Remember on large scales a “skill advantage” averages out.

[DirectSupport]

@H_ngma_

Direct support thinks the Rafale is fine

Please don’t lie

@DirectSupport

By the way, it is very possible that even when accounting for the playerbase, the Rafale still outperforms other nations, but just maybe not to the extent that some people have been alleging.*

[ShOt_MaCkEr]

Direct support thinks the Rafale is in dire need of a buff

[DirectSupport]

@H_ngma_

Direct support thinks the Rafale is fine and the reason for its statistical overperformance is better players.

I said the reason for SOME of its over-performance could be the playerbase, not the only factor. I admitted it’s very plausible the plane is overperforming after adjusting for the playerbase

@DirectSupport

It isn’t inconvenient, its very much possible, easy to do, and can be understood. Refusing to look at readily available information that explains some of the performance factors

[H_ngma]

@DirectSupport

By the way, it is very possible that even when accounting for the playerbase, the Rafale still outperforms other nations, but just maybe not to the extent that some people have been alleging.*

You couldnt have fit more maybe in this text if you tried.

@DirectSupport

I said the reason for SOME of its over-performance could be the playerbase, not the only factor. I admitted it’s very plausible the plane is overperforming after adjusting for the playerbase

Jesus finally we arrive at a similar conclusion.

[Farlexgamer_psn]

@DirectSupport

I admitted it’s very plausible the plane is overperforming

It’s not plausibile, it’s a fact
Player base or not

[ShOt_MaCkEr]

I don’t know what kind of magic fr*nch players you’re talking about guys. From my experience - surely not the ones flying rafale in GRB.

[DirectSupport]

@Kir_-_

And theres your issue. Lower battle rating = different player base. If we want to be able to account for player skill when comparing the rafale to other aircraft at it’s battle rating, the Aircraft we choose to use as a base have to be at the Rafales battle rating.

It’s not necessarily true that lower battle rating = different player base when examining/accounting for newer players vs more experienced players. It is the case that identical aircraft at lower battle ratings provide basis that experienced players make up more of the playerbase of one country than another country. I don’t believe new French players are any better than new US players or any other major nations, so higher performance stats of an identical aircraft in France is evidence of more experienced players and the margin of difference in performance can then be examined/accounted for.

@Kir_-_

Yes, but we wouldn’t be able to normalize the difference based on that data, because we’re no longer comparing identical planes

Better conclusions can be made comparing identical planes and accounting for the average differences of all the identical vehicles and then deducting that average difference from the Rafale than there is to be concluded from solely looking at the Rafale and Su-30SM for example. In one scenario more factors were included compared to the other scenario where less factors were included. Is the first scenario perfect and may contain some flaws? Sure*, but it has more basis than a conclusion based on surface level analysis.

[Kir]

@DirectSupport

It’s not necessarily true that lower battle rating = different player base when examining/accounting for newer players vs more experienced players. It is the case that identical aircraft at lower battle ratings provide basis that experienced players make up more of the playerbase of one country than another country. I don’t believe new French players are any better than new US players or any other major nations, so higher performance stats of an identical aircraft in France is evidence of more experienced players and the margin of difference in performance can then be examined/accounted for.

And what about more experienced players that only play lower tiers and not the top tier F-16? Those would skew the data again. If you want to create a dataset to normalize the skill difference between different top tier planes the dataset on which you base the normalisation has to be from the same population, meaning top tier players, not lower tier players, experience does not matter here.

[Kir]

@DirectSupport

Better conclusions can be made comparing identical planes and accounting for the average differences of all the identical vehicles and then deducting that average difference from the Rafale than there is to be concluded from solely looking at the Rafale and Su-30SM for example. In one scenario more factors were included compared to the other scenario where less factors were included. Is the first scenario perfect and may contain some flaws? Sure*, but it has more basis than a conclusion based on surface level analysi

I have frankly no idea what you’re trying to say in relation to my answer

[DirectSupport]

@Kir_-_

And what about more experienced players that only play lower tiers and not the top tier F-16? Those would skew the data again

These experienced players that play only lower tiers exist in all tech trees, and if there’s identical vehicles being looked at in lower tiers, this isn’t an issue at all.

[DirectSupport]

@Kir_-_

So, unless we spend a significant amount of time completing an arguably impossible task we aren’t allowed to make conclusions? That’s one way to shut down a discussion in bad faith.

Atleast one shouldn’t be overly confident in their conclusions if they haven’t made the effort with the available data. You already have players here who completely dismiss the possibility of Rafale being played by more experienced players.

[Kir]

It is. We have no way of knowing if the population of a nation is equally skilled at X tier and top tier. They’re different populations, therefore results gathered from one cannot be applied to the other. I don’t get what’s so difficult to grasp about this

[DirectSupport]

Look, I’ll concede that top tier playerbase should be what is looked at if that’s what it would take for you or others to state that playerbase performance can account for some of the Rafale’s overperformance.

[Kir]

I’ve only seen people dismiss the idea that the difference is entirely due to player skill, not that there’s a skill gap at all?