I havent found anything about TVC exept proposition to USN from late 90s, how the hell is it doing 50Gs with those tiny “wings”
it looks like it could go up to 90° given how extended the seeker gimbal is.
It was offered to the US, based on SRAAM i believe (the missile already in-game which only has TVC and no moving fins), the RAF didn’t think it was necessary, neither did BAE, but the US insisted on TVC/HOBS capability in a dogfight missile so they seem to have drawn up plans but never made a prototype.
This is what prompted me to say this:
Gaijin aren’t always good with representing things they don’t view to be possible, written down or not.
But the answer to your question is advanced computational avionics, fins and then ‘lifting body technology’
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from seeing how they do radars like APG-63v1 and 70. Limiting it by russian radar tech limits.
I wont hold my breath for 50G asraam… rather 30-35 given russian devs in WT and DCS tends to go by
- If russia couldnt do it, noone else could.
hence stupid HPRF limitations on western radar sets like 63v1, poor notch resistance, missing ILV modes for TWS…
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Tail control and a lift body means the whole missile is a lift surface.
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If you watch videos of ASRAAM it has less smoke than just about any other missile I’ve seen.
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Multiple sources confirm ASRAAM’s seeker gimbal limits are +/-90°.
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g overload this n that, whats the rate speed
well… wish we had smokeless amraams or 54C but well… unlucky i guess.
I need to clue myself in haha
Not the entire missile, and body lift is not true “lift”. It wastes a considerable amount of energy compared to traditional missiles in favor of lower turn radius. It is a medium between TVC and aerodynamically controlled ordnance such as the Python 5. More optimal for reducing drag and improving ranged performance without complexity from TVC & related guidance hardware / software.
When low turn radius is required or high overloads at lower speeds… it wastes considerable energy turning itself around.
The missile is body-lift. All force exerted by the tail section pivots the missile rather than being used to counter gravity. It must at all times fly with a slightly nose-up attitude from the ground so as to utilize the thrust and “body lift” to counter gravity.
The center of lift, mass, gravity is all important here. The missile has relaxed static stability on launch and becomes more statically stable as the propellant burns off. Initially it has a high maximum overload and a low turn radius due to the high acceleration of the motor and the tight turn radius provided by the lack thereof stability. Once the motor is almost burned off, or completely burned off, the weight has shifted up towards the seeker and it is far more “stable”. At this point, if it has a high amount of speed remaining, it can still turn at a high overload but the radius is considerably increased and the sustained pull is worsened.
Long story short, it is highly maneuverable off the rail and less so after flying for some time. If it is constantly maneuvering off the rail it will burn excessive energy and not maintain the maneuverability for long after the burn has started because it does not have energy in the form of speed to trade for a high maneuvering overload.
Hopefully this was explained sufficiently. I’m not an expert so if there is anything erroneous please inquire.
@Flame2512 Perhaps you have documentation that provides insights to the British thought process on their goals for the ASRAAM and how it was optimized? I’d like you to reference this excerpt from a 1983 paper on a tail control cruciform missile with and without wings. I’d like to point out that they did not seem to explore the concept of a statically unstable or relaxed stability design for the wingless missile here and only the comparison of a Phoenix-style missile with and without wings.
Source
It essentially states that (not considering the relaxed stability) the tradeoff is a very fast missile that reaches the targets quicker, but may not be able to perform the maneuver to intercept them (not an issue with the ASRAAM, of course), or a slightly slower missile with higher end-game maneuverability.
It was, thanks.
Now i cant wait how butchered its FM will be given what R73 does from time to time and how mica wobbles around killing ita range.
This sounds way harder to properly model than tvc.
I am sure they can model it like some of the more maneuverable SAM’s in-game that should work very similarly. The VT-1 works under a similar principle.
The difference is, instead of accounting for a big shift in the center of gravity pre and post-burn, the VT-1 style missile simply moves the propellant section to the middle of the missile to make for a much smaller shift.
The ASRAAM keeps the motor section ahead of only the control actuator section.
To better explain some of my thoughts on how this missile maneuvers I made this paint image;
Looking at the missile as though it is a lever and the center of gravity is the fulcrum, it is aided not only by the torquing moment of the fins, but the additional body lift on the opposite end of the fulcrum. Two moments working together like this to pivot the missile around its’ own center of mass allow for a very tight turn radius.
Similar to the F-16, the tail section can in some circumstances also aid to the overall lift. with some AoA, the missile can rely on the fins to provide some amount of lift as it is countering the pitching moment of the nose rather than attempting to counter gravity. Just remember, to pitch nose down it needs to add positive lift in an unstable configuration. With a stable configuration it would need to push nose up, countering gravity with what is considered “negative lift”.
Which is why they simply did not model it for aircraft, all aircraft in-game are statically stable. They have not updated their instructor or FM to handle it yet.
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I wish we had more info on ASRAAM like motor burn time and thrust. Because reading up what scraps of info I’ve managed find its flight performance sounds kinda insane.
Only thing I’ve managed to find is it’s a Remus motor of some sort. And going by the Australian document it has 70% more propellant per unit length compared the 9X motor. @Flame2512 do you have anything on the motor?
The meme will be how gaijin is going to nerf it by heavily limiting its all aspect capabilities. So you won’t be really able to use it for what it was designed.
@oppsijustkilledu @MiG_23M I’ve come across all sorts of bits and pieces from ASRAAM’s development over the years. I’ll do a proper reply when I have time.
Here’s a quick one line answer for now:
As I’m sure you know ASRAAM started as a UK / Germany / US project (with a few other countries at various points also). The nations all placed a high importance on high average velocity. The logic of the day could basically be summed up as “IR missiles have (or soon will have) advanced to a point where if two aircraft enter a dogfight both will probably end up dead to each other’s missiles. Therefore the best approach is to make sure your missile hits him before he is within range to fire his missile.”
That’s just going off the cross sectional area being 70% larger than the AIM-9.
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Is the FGR-4 in the T1 Blk5 variation capable of using brimstone? Or do you need tranche 3?
unable to use at T1 blk5, at least.
bad