Was fighting an Su-30 earlier, every time I tried to get a shot off, my radar locked onto the R-77-1 he fired at me. Had to defend 12 times before I eventually got a shot oppotunity then he face slammed into the ground
Yeah it’s totally stupid this increased RCS feature, and I’m surprised there’s no organized complaint to fight the RCS for missile or at least make the missile be filtered out like the Ground SAM (which they fortunately did making it an option).
Maybe its something coming with the new radar thingy next major. If it isn’t, then a poll to add it as an option/feature of the new radar thingy in a dev forum post would be the best bet
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Rafale actually has RAM inside the intakes and radar scattering triangles, but I digress
True but that’s just for general RCS reduction. None of the sources in that bug report explicitly say that is related to preventing identification via JEM (in fact they somewhat deny it, explicitly stating that it’s the engine being hidden from direct line of sight through the intake):
“A limitation to JEM NCTR techniques, though, is that if
the aspect angle is too far from head-on or tail-on and the engine intake or exhaust ducts
provide shielding for the jet engine, then there may be no JEM to detect.”
“to prevent being identified that way the Rafale designers hid the engine deep inside the fuselage. To avoid giving away the signature of the aircraft, there’s a pretty particular shape in the air intakes, if you look into the sleeve (intakes) you won’t see the engine because the objective is to hide it from hostile detection.”
I don’t see why this wouldn’t also apply here.
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The engine being hidden is one factor, radar reflections being minimized and absorbed is the other. I see no evidence of ram coating on the interior of the Eurofighter inlet ramps that would prevent a unique radar signature from returning to sender (albeit much much smaller than a direct viewing of the compressor inlet).
Even a relatively small reduction can be (usually is) catastrophic for identification though.
Also, it appears this lighter grey material is related to RAM, in which case the intake interiors are coated.
Sidenote: many modern aircraft can just do ISAR mapping or use the return intensity curve of the target’s shape for NCTR instead of relying on JEM, which tends to just totally nullify this and allow them to identify anyways. All this would actually change in game is the old US radars (which can barely identify as-is, they only classify) for example would no longer be able to identify while newer jets would be mostly unaffected.
I should be more specific, the RAM coating on the Rafale is a lot more than paint. It is a thick material that offers a much greater absorption of radar emissions than the additive paint seen on the Eurofighter. What the Eurofighter uses sparingly on only certain parts is a standard paint material used on almost every surface of something like the F/A-18E block 3 and other modern 4++ fighters. Unfortunately, it is behind the bend when it comes to low observables.
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JEM itself is only really used on F15, it doesn’t ‘count’ compressor blades, rather it looks for a signature that it has stored in its database for different aircraft which the USAF could get their hands on, if they couldn’t they’d build 1:1 models of them, they’d measure the signatures at different throttles and record radar returns. JEM though requires some time to process a target and in the Case of APG-63/70, there wasn’t enough processing power and therefore STT was required to operate NCTR. If the target was at any other aspect other than the front, no F15 from A to MSIP II would be able to identify a target other than size and vehicle type, as they do in game. Since then, more or less every modern fighter has switched to HRR(ISAR) or intensity curve mapping. Especially those with High Power high PRF radars and ESA radars, with AESA being able to provide an actual radar image of the target in the same way SAR can.
Captor-M itself supposedly uses Radar Cross section mapping, so again ISAR to identify targets, which works at any aspect and doesn’t require STT as long as the radar can scan across the targets entire airframe enough to create a map of radar returns, due to its high PRF, this shouldn’t take more than one or two radar sweeps, the system then compares the radar image to a database stored with radar returns from many different measured aircraft and selects the most accurate.
NCTR also isn’t just the Radar itself, it can be integrated with the RWR as the RWR is a lot better at identifying different Radars, the NCTR program can then compare the aircraft it thinks it’s looking at with what the RWR thinks is looking at it to guarantee the correct target is identified.
So no, Rafale should not be exempt from NCTR identification, especially not from Typhoon or anything with an AESA radar
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Yeah, it would be wierd that the CAPTOR-M can ID ground vehicles and have 30cm resolution when using SAR, but somehow cant identify an aircraft because of a little bit of RAM on the intakes.
Spoiler
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Oh gaijin please
Yeah, proper ground radars would be fun for a lot of aircraft. Tonkas especially
The Rafale is low observable, far more so than most other fourth gens. The range at which you should be able to ascertain what it is, let alone that it is there, should be much closer than for Eurofighter. No one said it should be exempt entirely from recognition - only that it should not be recognized from radar returns of the intake the same way or to the same degree the Eurofighter should.
Extensive use of radar absorbing materials, meticulously detailed angles and radar scattering techniques make the Rafale harder to get returns, ground vehicles tend to rarely use such materials and stick out anyway due to the topography.
Either way, rafale isn’t the topic here, I just brought it up because the bug report mentioned a feature which the EF also has and I was curious if it was reportable.
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So we are back to square one explaining how the Rafales features are far more comprehensive than the Eurofighter? At this point the Eurofighter vs Rafale RAM coatings and radar reduction techniques is like comparing a street car to a top fuel dragster because the owner bought slicks. I guess they’re both drag cars, right?
Eurofighter can have a participation trophy for being “stealth” and having “super cruise” because it technically has features of both.
Of course the report is a bit ambitious, but it is true the Rafale should not be subject to NCTR via engine signature and sure we can throw in the Eurofighter and gripen into the mix there, too.
…No we’re back to the eurofighter discussion. I didn’t bring any of that up.
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Though there is 1 fact that will make this whole NCTR discussion totally irrelevant. If the Rafale is the only aircraft without an NCTR, then you will always know that is the Rafale. Heck, wouldnt be surprised if the Typhoon would identify the Rafale as a Rafale because of that fact.
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