I’m not a huge fan of american vics so I can’t say i’ve sunk even a fraction of the amount of time I did on CR2, as I have with anything Abrams related. Gaijin’s evidence seemed pretty clear cut, and any time i’ve asked for American mains to present their evidence to the contrary, it’s been nothing but vitriol and extremely lazy bug reports that obviously won’t pass.
I’m all for it getting its DU hull, but Gaijin presented documents to say it was limited to 5. Why SEPv2 wasn’t just one of these five is beyond me, and i’d be pretty upset too if my “upgrade” was more weight and more vulnerability lol
That said, I haven’t yet seen anyone show anything that would conclusively go “That’s wrong” to Gaijins original claims. Happy to be shown stuff though! A big part of research is proving claims wrong, or creating conversation about a topic to deepen an understanding of it.
I don’t mind being shown I was wrong, but bug reports that start with “Yo wazzup” isn’t worth reading imho lmao
not gonna lie boiling all of the evidence provided by the community as “vitriol and lazy bug reports” is not only wrong but straight up disrespectfull, there was definetly vitriol but there also were plenty of well constructed arguments with backing evidence, gaijin’s own devblog was FAR from conclusive in the first place, i dont have the time to compile all of the community’s evidence, but its all there to see and it while it may take a while you should probably look at it.
I’ve asked on multiple occassions for folks to point me to their research and sources to back up their claims and I got folks lashing out and being extremely disrespectful. If folks aren’t going to be civil about it, it’s not a conversation I want to have, personally.
I do hope they add it, as I think it’s fairly hipocritical of them to give leeway to some vehicles because some tech demonstrators mounted equipment, or prototypes/rare occurances while not affording the same to other vehicles. Gaijin does struggle in the consistancy of its rules.
But Gaijin addressed the problem in a post, and provided their sources and reasoning. I asked folks to see their responses and it was a reach at best. I appreciate drawing likely conclusions but “Wazzup Gaijin, giv e Abrams its DU in the hull because they extended the amount of DU hulls they had past 5 in the document”
It’s not a credible source. There’s no several documents suggesting a figure that i’ve been shown, or even if they did make DU hulls past the 5 before V3. It’s guesswork, which, when it comes to Gaijin is something you have to barely rely on. It seems the moment I suggest Gaijin is in the right for having the discussion, addressing it head on and presenting their side, folks flock to sling abuse in my direction. It discredits their claims further and makes me not want to engage in the topic at all.
Happy to be shown some sources that say it does have DU in the hull, but right now, It’s a conversation I don’t particularly care for. Especially when folks are so heated about it to the guys who act as messengers.
guess what when you are dispespecfull people people call you disrespectfull, if you dont care enough about a discussion not to spend 2 hours reading a thread why should people care enough about spending double the time compiling that same evidence for you to see?
also you know very well how usefull bug reports usually are, and of course the community gets angry when one of gaijin’s main points in their devblog was literally just them assuming things(wrongly) about a vehicle? they dismiss secondary (or hell even primary sometimes) sources but then use their own assumptions to implement a vehicle or weapon system, and those arent “messangers” they’re gaijin’s medium to talk to players. its different
i know ive been following his bug report quite closely, because i care about the cr 2, its one of the best ive seen, and even then it has gone largely nowhere.
You’re right, which is why I have called them disrespectful.
I’ve read through it plenty. Followed since the blog was first put up and watched it devolve into name calling and accusations. It’s not constructive, and I don’t want a part in it. I don’t think it’s ignorant to steer away from a stream of unconstructive negativity and abuse towards regular people. I don’t want to see or read that.
Gaijin literally put my name in two sections of their recent Challenger 2 blog and misquoted my research. I was rightfully upset but didn’t devolve into name calling or harassment. I told them I wasn’t happy with that, and Smin respected those wishes and it was changed to avoid confusion and associating my work with incorrect details. I have since spent the time from that blog, working with Gaijin’s staff respectfully and providing sources they deem are solid enough. Getting pissy with people and throwing a tantrum doesn’t fix issues. Being an adult and having a mature conversation does, which is what I sought out to do. It took a lot of time and effort and we did hit roadblocks along the way. I had to change my point of view and definitions to theirs and made my argument stronger as a result. Absuing staff is never okay.
They’re people, who relay the messages that the developers wish to convey. It’s not representative of their personal beliefs and we can see this when Gunjob had raised internal concerns over CR2. They’re people, with jobs. Not robots. They deserve respect even if you butt heads and disagree on topics. The name of the game is “beyond a reasonable doubt”. If they have sources to say Abrams has DU in the hull, they should forward that to the devs in a polite and organised, well structured report.
Not sling it at them and shout abuse.
There has been a lot of behind the scenes chatter with myself and Smin, and a lot of back and forths with their tech mods to iron out my reports. I don’t feel ignored and they have been actively passed as suggestions which is the end goal. They’ve humored me this whole time and I’m very grateful for their work and support, even if it doesn’t go through. It’s the developers decisions - Not the comm manager or their mods.
ive read pretty much through the entire abrams hull devblog and ive seen pretty much no personal attacks aimed at any specific people, there were a few outliers but again devolving the whole communitie’s argument into “insults and bad research” is not only objectively wrong but yet again extremely disrespectfull. and there was defintly no abuse and if there was it was not supported, what i have seen is people shitting on gaijin in general, and if you define that as abuse, i can guarantee you gaijin doesnt really care because as a matter of fact its not a living entity.
im glad there has, doesnt change what they said in the devblog initially though, if misrepresenting evidence is the first response of a company who’s main job is making said evidence into a playable vehicle then im sorry but im not going to trust their word on anything(especially since this isnt the first time, nor the second, nor the third). i really dont understand your point here man, and CR2 aside are we forgetting the whole m735 and Manpads fiasco? one they implement wrong changes, recognize its wrong, and then dont revert it, the other they just straight up act like engineers and value their opinion before primary and secondary sources, this are recent to, if we go back i guarantee there is plenty of other stuff to see.
I’ll frame it this way, as it’s the quickest way to not clog up the Challenger 2 thread - If American mains have sources to suggest this and it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt - I’d love to see it.
So far though, i’ve got nothing to go off, so Gaijin’s response seems justified in it’s own rights but still has its own issues that i’ve touched on.
Could the blog have been better? Yes.
But the discussion and hate boner people have for Gaijin, while forgoing any of the conversations and reporting standards to get this changed is wild. People don’t listen when you berate and abuse them and their work.
Again - Happy to have an actual conversation about this, but each time i’ve tried, it turns into accusations and fights and goes nowhere because their sources are weak.
I am always happy to be shown contradicting evidence if it’s compelling and I do want the SEPV2 to be good and have it’s DU hull. But I haven’t seen the evidence for it.
Gaijin said there were no suspension upgrades. People found that suspension upgrades were in fact done. Gaijin has not recanted its prior remarks. Gaijin also increased the tank’s weight (that according to Gaijin had no accompanying suspension upgrades to handle it) with no clear evidence of where the weight came from. Gaijin have not been acting entirely in good faith, and IMO given how scattered around and half-buried the various data pieces are regarding the Abrams I’d say an excellent job has been done assembling a somewhat cohesive picture.
Gotcha, but that doesn’t particularly prove DU was installed unfortunately. I can see the reasoning but changes to the game essentially require you to directly be able to point to something and show them armor was upgraded
That’s the primary issue people have been trying to raise regarding the Abrams. Its so classified the best we can do is point to things that demonstrate there were significant armor upgrades to the front hull of the SEPv2. We literally can’t provide the information Gaijin wants without posting classified data. Sure, nothing specifically states outright DU was installed, but there’s a preponderance of evidence that indicates its more probable than not. But that’s not good enough for Gaijin, or yourself, apparently.
And given Gaijin’s own terrible posts about the Challenger, Abrams, and MANPADS, I’m not inclined to give them much of a benefit of the doubt on what they believe and say.
I mean, yeah, there’s evidence to suggest the tank was designed to take on more weight and the armor was reinforced, but that’s not conclusive enough to say it was DU exactly, located in the hull, with “this” exact thickness and coverage
And all of that is extremely classified and we’ll probably never get a serious public release for at least a decade, leaving everyone in a no-win situation regarding its armor where it sucks but Gaijin refuses to do anything about it due to a lack of sourcing, instead giving it the same armor its had since the 1980s.
What people are saying is that yes the SEP V2 used DU hulls on 5 pilot/prototype vehicles. It wasn’t widespread until the V3 version though from what I can tell.