The point of war thunder is to have a balanced game, if you want to go full historical it would mess with a lot of nations and make some plane go at weird br, and if you wanted to go this road france would get instead a rafale f4 to make it up with the shitty missiles, it would have an even better radar than it already has etc, there is no point going the historical way, if things are not a strech enough then it’s fine.
Lot of hmd were tested on the rafale before and the additionnal missiles could be added with no big software updates or whatever, it’s just about the army and politicians, the additionnal missiles had been certified by the DGA and it is enough for it to be able to use those missiles on the rafale.
Yeah, when looking at the gripen seeing it in every other tree is sad, at least France had a better treatment on this and kept for example the mirage 2k5f for a while only in their tree tho i don’t believe rafale will come in any of the current tree in the game, there is nothing after and would ruin the air with a bad ground currently.
I have no problem having the rafale going in new tree or subtree part of new tree as long as we don’t begin to have thing like gripen e, rafale in the same tree etc it would ruin everything or for example saudi f15 + saudi eurofighter + saudi rafale (it may not be saudi and i may be thinking about another country).
Except this clearly isn’t accurate. The Rafale is absolutely crushing the competition if the numbers from thunderskill (i know everyone hates TS, still the only numbers we have until gaijin makes a real effort at making a competitive game/esports and starts making vehicle performance statistics and the likes openly available, and still the only way we can numerically compare winrates and KDR etc… between WT vehicles atm, so obviously take it with a pinch of salt) are to be believed.
Second most played jet in the entire game in RB, only behind the premium F1C-200 ppl are using to grind it. 76.28% WR across 15k+ games, 2.47 KDR, I dont think ive ever seen a jet with such ridiculous numbers on TS besides MAYBE the MiG-23MLD back when it was clubbing F-4J’s pre F-14A.
Had the MICA’s been modelled accurately but reduced to 6 missiles and no HMD, the argument could be made that the rafale gets to have the best dogfighting missiles and very high performance long range missiles because it lacks certain key features in a dogfight or RB environment, namely an HMD.
The addition of the 2 extra MICA’s also put the Rafale in a very exclusive group of top tier jets capable of running 8+ BVRAAM’s (F-15’s, Su-27/33/34, pretty sure that’s it?) All while having generally superior flight performance and sensors than all of them.
As for:
The Rafale “F3R” we have in-game is already effectively a Rafale F4.1, in French service the standard included the addition of the Scorpion HMD (which it has in-game), and the 2 extra MICA’s (which it has in-game). There are some other differences as well irl but to my understanding they’d make little difference in-game (omitting Meteor since no jet gets them in-game atm).
From the Suggestion post for the Rafale F4.1:
So in effect, not only is the Rafale not likely balanced in-game atm, but its already modelled as an F4.1, its just not called an F4.1.
Does not afaik, software updates tho, and the RBE2-AA is already so much better than all radars in-game its not even comparable.
Pretty sure that’s all I said back when this whole mess started. Could be wrong. Pretty sure I also said the 8x MICA + HMD “because it was tested” while German EFT not getting PIRATE “because it was only tested” was a blatant double standard and obvious preferential treatment of the Rafale as well, though I stand by that comment (my stance on both being neither should have equipment tested but not implemented on these respective variants in their respective air forces IRL).
Ive had other discussions since then, such as about the IFF’s capabilities (wherein I was proved wrong, but not in a “the Rafale has a unique feature nobody else has” but in a “IFF has been doing that in military jets since the F-4, so its not actually special at all” kind of way, which was an interesting new thing to learn and apologized as well as the Rafales MAWS blind spot, but those came after everyone had already dogpiled on me.
Yeah i looked and it’s only a small software update and about radar i don’t see why everyone whine about it when the rafale can’t use it in a meaningful way with the mica missile.
Those have already been explained 50 times and those are gaijin rules, it did both tested the different hmd and could carry the additionnal missiles, if there was a conflict you would see rafale f3r with the ability to carry mica missiles in those spots too because there was no change needed.
If you want to whine at gaijin to follow a different path sure, but don’t begin to repeat such things and i’m sure lot of aircraft could be called “f4.1” compared to what they should be you are just focusing way too much on the rafale that is all, if i remember right the gripen in the swedish tech tree should not have an hmd for example at least for the first version.
So like i said before this leads nowhere we are too far for such change to ever be remotely possible and if you were supporting historical you would not whine all time for the german eurofighter to get PIRATE, it has been years that the typhoon is a thing, it is fair that Germany does not get it if they never ever used it in all the life of the plane, eurofighter would be like 3 years old or something no one would care about it possibly coming on it but life is life and Germany made sure to actively not use it.
The Gripen A should most definitly have its HMD removed, particularly now that it sits at 13.0 with a bunch of other jets that dont have HMD’s.
I was simply pointing out that you stating France would need the F4.1 standard if it didn’t get its HMD and 8 missiles was factually wrong, as the standard in-game is, gameplay-wise, already an F4.1. and that if it DIDNT have the 8 MICA’s and HMD, it WOULDNT be an F4.1, so your point was entirely contradictory. I’m not the only person to hold such views, the person who literally made the suggestion post for the F4.1 said so as well.
I LITERALLY just said I didn’t want the German EFT to get PIRATE.
What I DID say is that it is a blatant double standard in terms of justification for implementation. You’re literally trying to start an argument for nothing.
Then it’s the wrong person that i assumed it was and i did not tried to read after reading seeing PIRATE in, my bad then, i am sorry to not have read fully your message.
The devs are inconsistent, such is life. What should be consistent but isn’t is the wishy washy about the Rafale and EFT. Both are missing capabilities and are pretty handicapped, the whole “you’re biased, no you’re biased” thing is tired.
I mean, I’m not trying to reopen that can of worms. Devs will do what the devs will do. Just wanted to discuss what I perceived to be a misconception on his part, as well as my past comments and subsequent treatment in this thread relative to what you stated you’d also said.
As you said, both the Rafale and EFT are underperforming. In many ways rather significantly. They are also the top 2 jets in-game atm tho, with the Rafale as the uncontested #1 king and the EFT being rather clearly the second best, so its not overly surprising they dont have their “full” capabilities either. In the case of the EFT though, some of the missing features are already in-game on jets like the Rafale and Su-34 (priority track) and are being withheld, presumably cuz the devs don’t understand the bug report (translation issue?)
Either way, every nation needs to catch up to France in terms of jets at this point (EFT nations less so), which once again puts into question the DOA Hornet patch that is likely already been delayed twice, and likely to be delayed again imo.
Going off of total statistics on performance is a terrible way to balance (they still do it anyway), its half the reason most of the absurd BR matchups in this game exist. Saying anything is over/underperforming based on the stats is going to be so skewed its not even worth considering worth any salt. Comparing first starter nations to second/third choice nations primarily played by experienced players like france/sweden/israel is flawed from the start.
And while I prefer RB and mainly play it, SIM basically is a great example of showing the flaws in every issue of war thunder because of its low playercount. Which is to say, Red team ussr/france/china/etc gets reamed by blue team for 10 patches straight who then go on to learn how to fight on uneven ground. Now that red team has received comparable tech to blue team you have everyone calling things like the rafale OP because theyve spent the past ten patches playing match 3 on their radar while red team has been screaming just to get to a merge.
As for inconsistencies and double standards, more valid. But seriously, everyone here knows there are no real standards, its a shotgun blast of balancing and implementation decisions. You’de be better off making sense and drawing reliable patterns from the stock market.
The Rafale is the second best in a dogfighter but the typhoon trumps it in all FM regards as of last I checked (in game). Both sit in this odd position to be nigh incontestable in a dogfight while being strong elsewhere. Meanwhile most kills happen in the first minutes of the match in BVR. Were it the kit the Rafale has that = its perf, the typhoon would be even higher in WR, yet it isn’t. Not saying top as the f15cs radar isn’t a RV microwave taped to the front. But the Rafal’s radar is not something amazing, it’s advanced features are still not modeled and in game its basically a f15 radar with a slightly faster scan and schizophrenic target updates.
This is to say, if you’re argument is the 8x MICAs + the Rafales FM is the sole reason its WR is so high all because its unmatched and no one else has anything to compete is wrong. Were this not true, the f15C, f14a, all with the ability to be incontestable in their meta would have had better WRs. The real determining factor in WR is playerbase skill * kit, there’s a reason everyone experienced stopped playing US and its become a joke, just like the german ground mains of the wehraboo era.
The current meta of typhoon>rafale>f15 is rather tight, the issue is that everyone else is left with nothing to compete, even 6x ARH is a pathetic loadout, especially so without 120s as an option. Everything should have 8x at this BR, even one short is a major handicap, Rafale or Gripen. And no one should be holding their breathe for any missle changes for the MICA given whats been said combined with statistics making the priority even lower.
If you’re genuine goal is to push documents and get realistic and documented in game features and changes, the sad notion everyone here is familiar with is that words get you nowhere, you need to be persistent and lucky.
That said, the snail loves their statistically driven balancing decisions, it’s your best bet, the Rafale isn’t a premium after all, no new players to drive down WR.
Overall performance between Typhoon and Rafale? Pick your poison, BVR king vs WVR king. Depends on your position, literally. Also EFT will favor those used to BVR in things like the f14 while rafale will cater closer to play styles the French playerbase have been used to.
TL;DR Rafale is not overperforming, playerbase bias. Snail double standards would imply they have standards. MICA will not get its buff, especially as long as French win rates are positive. Rafale and EFT are both currently great planes, but not only is the German playerbase more of a first nation choice, but lacks planes that play similar.
Best jet is subjective based on personal experience. The only thing that’s undisputed is the fact that all 14.0s and some 13.7s are too good for their BRs and decompression is needed.
So as to better say my own point, the fact that the EFT/Rafale performance vs. is so divisive is best said that any objective difference is minimal to the point no one finds it egregious enough to fall out of team line. Meanwhile the options elsewhere are loud enough to show obvious issue. This is mainly my point.
Regardless of compression, I will stand by the idea that I believe after any feature/idea/mechanic goes live it should very-very-very rarely be removed outright. It alienates players who used it regardless of situation. Things should always have options added or changed slightly to fix balance. The only exceptions to things not being removed is when they are universally disliked, see Economy Nerfs, repair cost balancing, etc.
Exactly. There should never be any big removal, especially after a decent portion of time has passed since its release. Thats why we have dev servers for testing.
This argument would hold water if it wasnt for the fact the Rafale is (according to TS) the most played top tier jet in-game. You can say what you want about minor nations players being more skilled, etc… a 76% WR after 15k games is absurd.
If you wanna compare “minor” nation to minor nation, the Italian F-2000A (second highest WR at 70.42% iirc) only has 2k games played. Winrates tend to trend DOWN with more games played, as they tend towards the average. For the Rafale to be by FAR the highest winrate top tier jet in-game despite also having the most games played is an insane feat, and is a very strong indicator it is blatantly broken balance-wise.
Jan 14th: 6.8k games played, 80.02% WR
Jan 19th: 10.5k games played, 77.65% WR
Feb 1st: 15.6k games played, 76.28% WR
France didn’t get reamed in sim, France has consistently been a high performer in sim. REDFOR did get reamed, for multiple reasons (not just player count), and France could be on REDFOR’s side, but could equally as likely be on BLUFORs side. As for debating the merits of France in sim, afaik its generally considered that “whoever has the Rafales will win” in sim now. This isnt just because “les pilotes francais sont les meilleurs pilotes dans WT!!!”, its because the Rafale has some absolutely insane advantages in sim (HMD IFF and the single best radar in-game by miles to name a few big ones that arent relevant in RB). Minor nations do tend to have an advantage in skill, but if that was the only relevant feature of the Rafale being the top performer in WT, it wouldve held true for the M2K5F for example, and im pretty confident in saying it didnt.
WR’s arent everything in balance, but they are a pretty good leading indicator, particularly in the event of absolutely absurd winrate numbers like in this case.
Its a toss up FM-wise. Typhoon edges it out in 2c, Rafale wins the 1c. What the Rafale has that the Typhoon doesn’t tho is a much better gun (if you can hit your shots) and much MUCH better dogfighting missiles.
Never said the Rafales kit is perfect, it is inarguably the best kit in-game tho for air to air combat
The Typhoon would have a better kit for BVR due to higher speeds and the AMRAAM if it wasnt for the fact that its radar is absolutely awful, making it unreliable in BVR vs more than 1 target.
Most kills happen early games, but most games are won by the players that survive the initial widescale death of the fodder players on each teams ducking it out sub 20km, where the Rafale is king.
As I stated above with the Italian EFT win rate example, player skill is not at all the only factor at play when considering Rafales absurd win rate.
Yes it is. The RBE2-AA has the largest scan volume of any radar in-game, coupled with a very high scan speed, and most notably has a feature that allows it to refresh the tracked TWS target every 0.1 second regardless of the targets position relative to the current radar beam. There are only 3 airborne radars that do that in-game atm, The Kfir C.10 blk60’s, the Su-34’s, and the Rafales. It effectively has all the advantages of an STT with all the advantages of TWS wrapped into one.
If you wanna compare scan volumes btw, which is largely irrelevant in RB, but a massive deal in sim, the RBE2-AA has, at its largest, a scan area of 70x31 deg. Next closest of the top tier jets is the Su-34’s 60x20 deg. The EFT sits at 60x8 or 140x4 and the F-15E sits at 60x5 or 30x10, with a key point to note being azimuth search volume is significantly less important than elevation volume, as the RWR will help you locate threats in azimuth, but wont really help in elevation.
Now obviously, radar search volume isn’t the only characteristic that makes for a good radar, but its the easiest and quickest example I have on hand to show that the RBE2-AA is in a class of its own in-game without getting into discussions of datamined info. The only thing its not a top performer in is gimbal limits, but even then, its effectively second best at ±70 deg, with the Chinese J-10A and Russian MiG-29SMT’s ± 85 deg being the outliers in that aspect.
That was never my argument. What I am saying though is that the whole package that is the Rafale is in a league of its own, and the numbers (atleast those available to us) support that. Obviously theres more to a planes success than its missiles and FM, but to discount its FM and missiles almost entirely is a bad joke.
As explained above, it VERY much is. You cant hide behind “minor nation, supreme galaxy brain player skill” as an excuse when you have THE most played top tier jet in-game with the highest win rate and when other nations that, by all standards should be performing better (small nation italy, much less games played, “equivalent” jet) are not.
I dont know why every nations mains do this whole “we are the greatest players in the history of the game, that’s why we win so much!” anytime something they have is blatantly busted, but turn around and point fingers at vehicles/sensors/weapons/etc… discrepancies to justify why they are losing when they are underperforming.
At the very least APG-63(V2) to give the US an AESA radar, but yeah the APG-82 is probably the actually comparable AESA to the Rafales RBE2-AA.
I still cant wrap my head around who at gaijin thought itd be a good idea to add an AESA to the Rafale and skip the earlier PESA which would have already been the best radar in-game.
We got the RBE2-AA on the Rafale before we even got the F-2 Viper Zero and its AESA (first combat jet to mount an AESA) lmao.
