Why does it look so cursed?
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+1 to a tree incorporating as much unique stuff which actually flew, and a little bit of copy paste. Even more of a +1 if it gets a Polish sub-tree.
However I can’t get around the paper planes sadly.
Have you considered the FiSk 199?
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i like the idea but… Apart from Rank 1, arent those are mostly clones?
IM, the S-199 and S-99, Albatros and Delfin, are also good enough, but from rank 2 to rank 8 there are no particular reason to make a separate tree here, as much as you can jut make Czech camouflages for similar machines in USSR or germany ot whatever you like.
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Wouldnt be against a Polish subtree honestly, or even a combined Czecho-Polish tree (but i think both would be better off separated)
I also dont want copy-paste vehicles added, atleast not those who didnt have full scale mockups and who we dont have much info about, which is why my regular proposal includes only Škoda-Kauba V5, which had its full scale model tested in aerodynamic tunel, and the remaining paper designs are in extended version of the tree only.
I actually didnt know about this one, so thanks for letting me know about it. I will consider adding it in the future
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Large part of the vehices in the air tree are indeed made up of foreign designs and i can understand why the tree may not seem like a worthy addition on the first look. There are however still indigenous planes on every signle rank of the tree, and also large part of the foreign planes are modified and/or produced under license (often even having a different role than their base variants, for example MiG-15SB is a fighter-bomber with domestic rockets, 4 extra pylons and drogue chute among other things, while the B-36 HR158 (mosquito) has german guns and can carry german bombs).
Its also important to note that while the air tree may not be perfect, its both larger and more unique than some other nations we have in-game, while also having smaller BR gaps between vehicles (atleast in most cases)
(Good to note that air tree is not even the most important part of the tree - the ground part is)
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I think Polish-Czechoslovak tree will be the best option
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Well, if the tree comes with the czhech ground tree, then that air tree is pretty much okay, wil be better addition to the game then Hungarian air we got last update
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Looking at that air tree, some critiques jump out at me. The middle tree at rank 5 as listed is an absolute mess that is beyond over powered, while somehow being terrible with one exception.
L-39C at 5.7 would run rings around every aircraft it could possibly encounter. The fact that it could down tier to fight things like the Typhoon is just insane. The only marginally redeeming factors are that with how much runway it would need, it would be hard to use in air RB at that BR (lack of jet runways), and as far as I am aware, it was never cleared to carry gun pods, only practice bombs, meaning it would be completely unarmed. The result is a craft that’s either done to historical spec on armament and is the worst thing in game to play and encourages the most passive playstyle imaginable, or a liberty is taken on that front, and we get the most over powered tech tree vehicle in the entire game with flight performance comparable to at least an 8.0 down at 5.7.
L-39ZO is the exact same problem. It’s lower performance, particularly in a climb, except it actually was properly armed and could carry S5 rockets and FAB-250’s. It will also still outrun absolutely anything short of 8.0.
L-39CM is just comically over powered. IR missiles at that low a tier is a non-starter. That and again, flight performance.
At the other end of the spectrum is the L-159T2 and L-159 ALCA, which as far as I can tell from the description appear to both be wielding Fox 3 AIM-120’s. At as low as 11.3. In a down tier, that would mean fox-3’s against planes with minimalistic at best RWR, and in some instances, no countermeasures. Considering that Fox 3 missiles at 12.3 is already considered extremely strong, I don’t think I need to explain the problem here.
In it’s current state, this would be the most broken air tree in the game.
While I appreciate the history effort, my suggestion for the sake of balance is the following:
Axe all the L-39’s from Tier V. They don’t fit the historical progression in the slightest, and their far too much of a balance problem. The tree can also survive without them.
Second, remove the top set of L-159’s with AIM-120’s for the above stated reason. To fill back in the space and prevent an over saturation of one line at top tier, move the Gripen’s over to the L-39 line.
As a final consideration, both for balance and as what I would consider a more reasonable addition to the Rank V area if it does still need to be filled; L-29.
It’s not great, being arguably a slight downgrade to the existing strikemaster across most of the board, save for the guns, since MG-17 is an upgrade over the FN-MAG for aircraft.
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Im grateful for the criticism, but i would like to specify and/or correct few things:
Thats the only thing it can do really. Would have great maneuverability and top speed, but armament completely useless against planes and only partly usefull against ground targets. I wouldnt see it being used much in air RB, just ground only, as it can do some damage there atleast.
L-39 can both take off and land on 480m and 600m, respectively, so War Thunders mid-tier airfield runways should be good enough (atleast the main ones). Even strategic bombers can land on them after all.
Also small fun fact: L-39 can even operate from grass runways:
Spoiler
https://youtu.be/KAo2MKHHyoI?si=C-i0_5DdkpZQR_-e&t=974
(set time to 16:13)
Its able to carry 2x 100kg bombs, 2x 16x S-5K rocket pods and 2x R-3S missiles (which it probably wouldnt get on such low br ofcourse). Some sources even talk about ability to carry two PK-3 gunpods (with 3 PKM machinegun each), but i aint really sure about that because of lack of info
Honestly, i get your point. I myself also can see that this plane would be basically useless (which is why i put it so low in the first place), but at the same time i think removing it completely from the tree would also be a mistake, as it would create a preety significant BR gap and remove one of the most legendary training (and civilian) jet aircraft ever build from the tree (yes, there are also other variants of the L-39 in the tree, but those just arent anywhere as numerous and popular as the L-39C)
L-39ZO has 4 pylons instead of 2 on C, and can carry not only FAB-250, but also FAB-500 on pylons closer to the centre. That greatly improves its usefullness in both air and ground battles, but decreases its maneuverability by alot. It will again be completely unarmed, unless we give it the lackluster PK-3 gunpods or R-3S missiles. The BR of 6.3 seems kinda justified to me, or it should be at about 6.7/7.0 max, as Arado 234 B-2 with preety much the same armament (no guns, 1500kg of bombs) and comparable/slightly worse flight characteristics when fully loaded is also at 6.3.
Problem is, those IR missiles are R-3S - literally the worst IR missiles in-game, which can be very easily outmaneuvered by any pilot slightly aware of his surroundings. It also has a harder time locking onto non-jet airplanes with propellers, as they usually have way colder engines located on the front, decreasing the range of the missile drastically. L-39CM would thus bu nothing else than a classic L-39ZO with capability to ocasionally do boom-and-zoom attacks against unaware enemies or bombers.
Launch platform is also very important part of using FOX-3s effectively. Just look at the F-4 ICE. It can carry 4 AIM-120s (while ALCA would probably carry just 2), It has a better anti-air radar with better range (ALCAs radar is mainly anti-ground), its way faster, yet, the plane is overall shit compard to other FOX-3 aircraft. ALCA wouldnt be overpowered just because of having FOX-3s, either. I will ofcourse raise its BR in my tree accordingly with the new BR changes in the future, probably to 12.7 or 13.0.
That would create a terrible BR gap of 3.3 BRs, which isnt the greatest idea. I could see the L-39C and CA removed, with ZO staying exactly where it is and CM replacing CA in the premium line. Also, historical progression? Is that what i think it is? Because if yes, then we havent really had that in-game for a very long time (lets just look at majorit of Swedish tree)
That seems unnecessary. As ive already said, L-159 wont be anywhere close to being overpowered. Gaijin also doesnt even need to give it the AIM-120s, as it was never truly outfitted with them, but it can carry and use them after few small modifications (fitted for but not with is the official term)
That one is already in there, at rank IV, in the strike aircraft (middle) line. Same with scout L-29RS variant, which is in premium line. They are preety much like P-59A, just with way worse armament but better maneuverability. with just 8x 80mm (i think S-8) rockets and at best 2x 100kg bombs, it again is only useable as a low-flying ambush attacker, usefull for skilled pilots only.
Actually, your wrong. I mean about the guns obviously. The 7.92mm gunpods that the L-29 can use carry a whopping 90 rounds each, meaning 180 rounds in total. You will deplete all of your ammo in only 4.5 seconds, and with it being 7.92mm, it wont do much damage, either.
2 Likes
Problem with the early L-39’s is still very visible for me.
It’s a binary power position of either incredibly weak or incredibly strong, and the only difference between the two is the guns. In terms of armament, it won’t ever compete with anything above 2.7, but it will quite frankly out fly a bunch of jets in the 7.7 to 8.3 stretch. I can shoot down anything if given a little time, or run just run away with complete impunity from anything that’s even remotely close to my own BR.
Which is my major criticism against all of the low tier L-39’s. It’s an He-100 scenario cranked past 11.
You make a good point on the Fox-3’s, but I still hold my point on the L-39’s.