Cockerill Weapon systems - Which ones, what weapons and what ammunitions

[Chilean_Thunder]

@Thomas_Belgium

FAMAE Piraña I 8x8D - Cockerill CSE 90 mm

I found a much better photo of the Chilean variant here, so you can replace the current low-quality one whenever you get the chance :D

[Thomas_Belgium]

Three more External Weapon System (EWS) – C-Series (C25 & C30) vehicles

SABCA/IOP M113A1-B C25

MOWAG Tornado C25

MOWAG Piranha 8x8 C25

Any additional, higher resolution, pictures for these vehicles would be appreciated!

[Sebbo_the_Plebbo]

The C25 turret was also fitted to the Vickers Valkyr (apologies if this has already been mentioned but I didn’t see it anywhere in the post)

[Thomas_Belgium]

Oh yeah, I completely forgot to add it, I remember that video.

[THEPolishThunder]

Found these old images while trying to find some stuff

another 105 rosomak variant

[Thomas_Belgium]

That looks like a showmodel of this one (which is in the CT-CV section under the Large calibre ones):

@Thomas_Belgium

• CT-CV 105HP

==>

KTO MAS 105: The Polish Mobile Artillery System

poll KTO MAS 105 [pl-wilk-image01.jpg] Description : The Rosomak KTO MAS 105, also known as the Wilk (or “Wolf”) FSV is a new Polish Mobile Artillery System (MAS) based on the hull of a Patria AMV and equipped with the Cockerill CT-CV 105HP turret. Disclaimer: While it utilizes the name “Mobile Artillery System”, it is in fact a platform highly similar to its Finnish counterpart in the Swedish Ground Forces Tree. Developed in the early 2010’s, the KTO MAS 105 was designed to meet Polish re…

[THEPolishThunder]

I know but this one has different optics and comes with sleeping matresses on the side

[Chilean_Thunder]

Does this turret look familiar to you? It’s a variant of the Chilean Piraña with the Cockerill Mk III gun, but I can’t identify the turret.

[Thomas_Belgium]

No, I’ve not seen a Cardoen two-man turret before with Cockerill 90 mm Mk.III.

[Chilean_Thunder]

I found a video of this variant; the turret reminds me of the French AML-90’s, but it’s different. It’s not the Brazilian turret either, it might be a Chilean one.

[Thomas_Belgium]

As a side note, the source also allegedly depicts a PT-76 fitted with a Cockerill Mk. III gun.

Source:

CMI (Cockerill) brochure

CMI Defence. (2000). Cockerill Mk3/CSE 90 mm weapon system [Brochure]. Internet Archive. https://web.archive.org/web/20070331063456/http://cmigroupe-web.com.acelis.net/files/files/defence/cse90.pdf

CMI Defence included the PT-76 among the vehicles covered by its Weapon Systems Modernisation Programmes . The programme presented a range of potential upgrades intended to improve the performance of existing weapon systems.

For the PT-76 specifically, the brochure lists general turret reconditioning , replacement sights , direct day and optional thermal sights , I² night vision , a laser rangefinder , and, most notably, the replacement of the existing gun with a Cockerill Mk3 gun .

The table also indicates that CMI offered this gun replacement for the PT-76 alongside a similar upgrade for the Alvis Scorpion. The brochure does not, however, provide further details on the exact PT-76 configuration, ammunition, or whether a Cockerill Mk3-equipped PT-76 was actually produced.

Source: CMI Defence. (n.d.). Cockerill Mk3/CSE 90 mm weapon system / Cockerill Mk8/LCTS 90 mm weapon system [Brochure]. Internet Archive. https://web.archive.org/web/20070331184023/http://cmigroupe-web.com.acelis.net/files/files/defence/lcts90.pdf

[BSpiel8-live]

@Thomas_Belgium

Pandur II FSV (CT-CV 105HP) - Indonesian Army

Indonesian? This is a proposal for the Portuguese Army, I believe in 2007.

[Thomas_Belgium]

Correct, but this vehicle was later also used for the Indonesian army trials, where it succeeded and was subsequently made into the

@Thomas_Belgium

Pandur II FSV 3105

The MLU of the Indonesian pandur II FSV to 3105 standards

[BSpiel8-live]

This exact prototype from 2007, with the CT-CV turret, saw trials in Indonesia? Did Cockerill just have it in storage the whole time or something? And there are no photos of these trials?

[NFrost51]

that vehicle’s gun barrel is just a mockup

We dont have a lot of info about it but I’ve also surmised from observation about it here:

@NFrost51

Details

the gun is the issue.

Pandur FSV uses the Cockerill 3105 turret

notice on the base of the turret there are rivets surrounding a circular gap, this is to accomodate the recoil of the gun.

Here’s an actual CT-CV105 cannon barrel, different turret but the same gun, still has the rivets

notice the Harimau, which uses the same type of turret as the pandur (Cockerill 3105) also has that circular inner cutout for the recoil & the rivets

Meanwhile, here’s how the gun looks like in game, still has that same rivets (CTCV105 left, Boxer MGS Cockerill 3105 Right)

Again, the same. Now lets compare it to the Pandur

Example 1

Example 2

Example 3

this one you can zoom in to see, compare the Harimau’s gun in the background (LEFT) to the Pandur (Right)

Example 4

Example 5

in this example the muzzle brake itself isnt even fitted correctly

notice that in those examples, especially example 4, the circular base of the barrel always looks flushed & without the rivets.

rough drawings of the differences (left is actual 3105, right is the pandur's)

another tell tale sign is this: it is ALWAYS, in the exact same position, looking forward, slightly upwards. Not one image of the turret is in any other position other than that. If it was real then surely there must be some variation?

here’s an actual footage of a real cockerill 3105 turret with the gun installed in PINDAD’s facility elevating (timestamp= 1:13). notice how its not flushed

https://youtu.be/GhAr1vU7oNA?si=3d1d04O3d0Rb370G&t=73

---

Funnily enough this pseudo cannon was also the same one used on the Harimau MT back in Indodefence 2018, the one inside the venue is an actual gun with the rivets & everything, but the one outside isnt.

[Thomas_Belgium]

@BSpiel8-live

saw trials in Indonesia?

No, I mean that Indonesia (Pindad) ultimately worked further on that vehicle. The hull was returned to Belgium and later used in the Pandur II 3030 trials with the laser guided rockets, while the turret was used on patria chassis in Finland and Poland.

@NFrost51

that vehicle’s gun barrel is just a mockup

Yes, there are vehicles in this list that have a mockup gun/turret, like some of the Turkish vehicles too. They could be counted as partial prototypes or (ongoing) projects.

[BSpiel8-live]

@Thomas_Belgium

No, I mean that Indonesia (Pindad) ultimately worked further on that vehicle. The hull was returned to Belgium and later used in the Pandur II 3030 trials with the laser guided rockets, while the turret was used on patria chassis in Finland and Poland.

With CT-CV turret though? It seems misleading to label it as an Indonesian Army vehicle even if Pindad did “work on it” at some point because that ignores the originally intended recipient many years prior.

[Thomas_Belgium]

@BSpiel8-live

It seems misleading to label it as an Indonesian Army vehicle even if Pindad did “work on it” at some point because that ignores the originally intended recipient many years prior.

I can remove that label and I’ll just add a small info block under it, but I’ve mostly left context like that out because of the character limit on a single thread/post.

Historical note: This Pandur II FSV fitted with the CT-CV 105HP turret was originally developed as a 2007 proposal for the Portuguese Army, rather than as an Indonesian Army vehicle. The vehicle was later associated with Pindad/Indonesia , which continued work on the design to the Pandur II FSV (Cockerill 3105). The original hull was subsequently returned to Belgium and was later used in trials of the Pandur II 3030, while the CT-CV turret was separately used on other chassis for trials in Finland and Poland.

[BSpiel8-live]

Just was confused on why you were calling it Indonesian when there are no photos of it in Indonesian service, testing or otherwise.

[Thomas_Belgium]

I just learned that a couple years ago the Dutch did a feasability study for the Boxer to get a large Calibre gun using the XC-8 turret on a Boxer:

The Dutch Army assessed a Boxer variant armed with a large-calibre gun as unfeasible due to its total weight and the restrictions imposed by rail transport and heavy-equipment transporters. Furthermore, its passive protection would fall below an acceptable level, even before accounting for the additional weight of missile systems and active protection systems. The assessment concluded that a Boxer armed with a 120 mm gun could never be the equivalent of a Leopard 2 main battle tank.

This highlights the fundamental limitations of the concept: mounting a 120 mm gun on a Boxer does not make it a viable MBT replacement. Weight, protection, transportability and survivability remain critical constraints, regardless of the firepower such a vehicle could deliver.