Okay… gonna bring up the real-life F-16 for a second.
They were going to make the F-16 stick non-moving, but the human condition doesn’t work with that.
A non-moving stick doesn’t translate well to control surfaces.
So what the company did was give it enough movement to give enough feedback.
Feedback is important for controls.
You know what doesn’t give feedback? A mouse.
A HOTAS will give feedback, a mouse cannot.
So if you’re modeling a system that needs to be controlled by something that won’t supply feedback, you need to make sure user error that only exists in the software doesn’t exist period.
You know what user error exists in GHPC or Battlefield? Inconsistent speeds and subconscious micro movements.
Neither of which occur when using a stick.
So it’s a software specific user error that needs to be coded out somehow.
How do you do this? Translation layer.
For air you make the translation layer a virtual joystick.
For ground you make the translation layer a virtual aiming direction.
Realism means to realistically portray the output of the asset you’re trying to simulate as best as possible.
The only way to do this with tanks is crew aiming with virtual aiming direction to eliminate the subconscious micro movements that only exist when using a mouse.
A loss of an arm gets the crew fragged in War Thunder.
War Thunder lets me control tank turrets like I did IRL [no, I wasn’t a soldier].
GHPC does not, it’s too clunky and thus unrealistic. The way turrets move in GHPC isn’t at all how they handled when I got to use them IRL.
Could you please rotate the turret 90 degrees with an almost constant rotation of half-max rotation speed, without drastically changing hiw you use your input device? A real tank gunner can do that.
Oh, well tremors I didn’t bring up.
It’s a valid point; it gets you disqualified from using those vehicles IRL, but a valid point none the less.
War Thunder’s tanks are depicted as they operate IRL better than all currently. I know, not much competition. Even Steal Beasts has wildly incorrect aspects about it, but it’s a crew training simulator so the incorrect aspects don’t matter for its primary goal of training crews. Steel Beasts clients aren’t using mouse and keyboard to begin with.
Like how Arma 3 is an arcade shooter that’s really good at teaching people communication.
Currently yes, though with slightly more inconsistency in speed.
I can however do that with full power, and a perfect deceleration in both situations identically.
They did make it like that initially. Pilot feedback caused them to give a small amount of feedback in later versions. You were close to correct.
So, mouse aim. Something that you said War Thunder is not using for ground vehicles by calling it “crew aiming”.
For simplification, mouse aim is used for accessibility both for air and ground. Aircraft has a choice to use virtual or actual joystick, ground does not. First person aiming using joystick is incredibly good, and sim lacks immersion as is, there is a thread dedicated talking about this issue of disconnected controls. Do not get sidetracked.
Mouse doesn’t control tanks in War Thunder, it points to where you want the crew to aim, and the crew operates the turret, which is the best way to translate mouse movement into a realistic simulated output of how a tank turret is supposed to operate when using mouse and keyboard.
You could call it an accessibility option, and it doesn’t diminish that it’s the most realistic idea in the world and Gaijin wasn’t even the ones to think of it. Wargaming didn’t think of it either.
And the only reason to oppose it is if you prefer less realism or are afraid of better systems.
With no infantry support? Are you sure about that?
Of course not. It’s a sunk cost fallacy at this point. You tooted the “War thunder is the most realistic”- horn tooo much you can no longer back down.
Even though the statement itself is an oxymoron. Since there is no overall realism scale. Every aspect needs to be looked at indiviually, and no sim will be the best at everything. Generalized statements as you made them are usually dumb. I have no idea why you are soo keen on making them.
And by the way. My entire post wasn’t about how tanks operate, but on how they are operated… Major difference. You might get that distinction right.
Sure, so does war thunder. That’s why a general statement on what is the most realistic is idiotic.
Show it record your mouse while doing so. Since you are not allowed drastic changes to the input you are doing. So micro movements with the mouse are not allowed. Since those are drastic because the are sudden. A real tanker can do it with fluent movement of his hand. You said you can do that as well with the current mouse aim system (again “mouse aim” as in the technology gaijin calls “mouse aim” not in the abstract “i am using a mouse”. Don’t change the menaing of WT terminology).
Are you serious. The system used to translate the mouse position to the crew input is called “mouse aim” in war thunder. What the hell do you think people mean when they say mouse aim?
You are playing this game too long to not know this.
“Mouse aiming (MA)
This is the simplest and most widely used control mode in the game. In this mode, the player uses mouse movements to set a flight course and aims the cursor at the target, and the Instructor, with full control over the aircraft, tries to follow the cursor as closely as possible”
This is from the wiki about the instructor… Geez.
Willfully ignorant is all i am saying
Oh and inb4 “but that is for aircraft”… Nope this is from the ground forces section:
“So what about ground vehicles, you ask? Yes, in ground warfare, the Instructor directly controls the ground vehicle itself”
Infantry support with tanks is to counter enemy infantry, which isn’t in War Thunder, thus infantry support isn’t necessary.
Mouse cannot be used to simulate tank sticks, it’s not possible. Attempting it is futile.
The only way you make tanks realistic with mouse and keyboard is how War Thunder and other games implemented the translation layer… with crews controlling the turret, and you guiding the crews.
War Thunder ground is why I stopped playing Arma tanks entirely because of how more realistic the tank movement in War Thunder is for turret, gun, and hull.
It’s also why I won’t be interested in GHPC that’s trying to be a Steel Beasts but without the tank interiors.
Yes. It absolutely does. The cursor, that you aim with your mouse, will direct the gun to point to the physical object it is centered on.
Gaijin literally patented this mouse aim system. What are you talking about?
I don’t oppose this system for War Thunder. It’s one of the key aspects that made it such a successful game. It is not, however, translated well in sim where it is too simplified, which is why this entire conversation happened in the first place.
lol
I had this issue finding games that have correct gun movement and recoil to my IRL shooting, where CODMW2019 and Tarkov were the only ones for years. Granted CODMW2019’s speed was slightly higher for gameplay purposes, gunplay was on point.
I got to move a Stryker variant I didn’t get the name of’s turret, an Abrams turret, Leopard 1 turret, and a few more… which meant I could no longer play clunky controls games.
Real-life actions spoiling me and making me yearn for that experience in the digital form.
War Thunder remains the only game where the turrets move closest to how they did when I controlled them in the real world all without requiring a HOTAS to play the game.
They patented the air sim virtual joystick.
The tank aiming system is seen in World of Tanks, Valkyria Chronicles, Armored Warfare, and countless other games featuring tanks. War Thunder was not the first, thus likely wasn’t patented.
There is no better system for sim.
it is not. pointing and the gun moving there might be the same in these games. What Gaijin patented is HOW(!!!) it is done. You really have trouble understanding nuance do you?`
There is more to mouse aim than you seem to understand.
Agm65 g missing from av8b plus
Spall liner missing from leclercs
Spall liner missing from type10
Spall liner missing from tkx
Gun sight missing from ej kai f4 hud
Flare pod missing from t2
Flare pod missing from f1
Maw missing from ah64dj
Ir tracker missing from strf9040 family
Ir tracker missing from strf9030 family
Incorrect radar tracking on low altitude with gen4 jets
incorrect autopilot lead with radar spaa
Incorrect kf41 aps working
incorrect agm65 a/b/d/h damage
incorrect spike rocket damage
Incorrect pars 3 damage
incorrect t90m reload time
Incorrect vt4 reload time
incorrect ztz99 reload time
Incorrect wz1001 reload time
incorrect mig29 flight model
incorrect f16 flight model
Incorrect su27 flight model
Incorrect f5c loadout
Incorrect akd10 speed
Incorrect akd9 speed
Incorrect overpressure dmg with lower calibers
Incorrect type10 turn rate on highter speed
Incorrect tkx turn rate on highter speed
Incorrect zlt turn circle
Incorrect leclerc armor
Incorrect ztz99 armor
Incorrect wz1001 armor
Incorrect vt4 armor
Incorrect beigletpanzer fire rate
Incorrect cv90120 penetration
Incorrect wvc
Incorrect targeting pod resolution
Incorrect iod tracking
Incorrect radar power in mig29
Incorrect radar power in f20
Incorrect radar power in av8b plus
Incorrect matra 530e track rate
Incorrect top armor in strv122 family
Incorrect gas turbine engine sound level
Incorrect hmd on m2k 5f
Incorrect r60 flare resistance
Incorrect aim9p flare resistance
Incorrect zbd04a gunner fov
Incorrect t90m gunner fov
Incorrect spall damage with under 120mm ammo
Incorrect dtc 125 penetration
Incorrect 3bm60 penetration
Incorrect m829a1 penetration
Incorrect ofl 120 f1 penetration
Incorrect ammo explode mechanism
Incorrect ammo in bmp2
Incorrect spall liner working mechanism
We need normal matchmaker
We need unnerf the rp and sl rewards
We need back the good simuolatir rewards
We need back the flank and sniping positions
We need normal staff who hear the players voice
We need good events
We neee unique event rewards
We need new game modes
We need not unbalanced maps
We need optional options for ± 0.3br drop
I don’t mind CAS I do CAS myself but AA is a problem with me as I don’t have many I just thought different game mode because when I have AA I’m crap at shooting things down