Churchill AVRE Pen Statistics question

Machinery of War Discussion Ground Vehicle
,
1

This is a general inquiry about the Churchill AVREs penetration.

image

I would like to ask how penetration is determined, as the TNT equivalent of the bomb, as seen, is 17.73kg- Over twice of some of the artillery pieces in the game with the exact same penetration characteristics, yet it shares the same exact ability to break through armour. Most rounds have proportional penetration for the amount of TNT equivalent, as seen between the M109, being very similar to the Sturmpanzer and Brummbar in terms of effective penetration, while the Type 75’s lesser rounds sacrifice penetration for the lower mass, which logically would put the petard bomb somewhere in the 100-120mm range.

So what deciding factors go into this? Is it simply a matter of balance to stop churchills wiping MBTs and heavies, which would admittedly be very funny for the lack of range, or is there no form of calculation for the HE rounds? I personally would very much like to see more punch in the flying dustbin, but I am not a balanced individual.

I apologise if the structuring of this question is odd, or the topic incorrect for the forum, I’ve not posted here before.

2

Currently the game seems to mostly not take projectile mass and velocity into account when measuring HE shell penetration. This is slowly starting to change, with some smaller HE rounds now penetrating armor partly by their mass and velocity alone, but its far from where it should be.

In particular, all large-caliber HE rounds do not yet have any multiplier for their mass and velocity. Even though we know that should such modifiers get added, the benefits on high-velocity HE will be enormous.

As one example, the German 128mm HE shell could punch through approximately 188mm of flat steel plate at its maximum velocity (seen on the Sturer Emil but strangely not on the Jagdtiger/Maus, even though the latter two do use the max charge for their AP rounds).

Another case is Russian 122mm HE being seen as almost equally effective at tank-killing as the AP. Captured Russian 122mm guns tested by Germany in the same criteria gave around 150mm flat penetration for the HE shell, and 165mm penetration for the AP.

With numbers like that in mind, I can only begin to imagine how strong the 6.0-6.7 high-velocity artillery pieces would be.

Even the biggest HE shells only are about 10-20% filler weight by mass. The rest of the shell mass doesn’t just go “POOF” upon impact, but rather has penetrating effects like low-ish quality AP.

Just plugging in existing numbers into Snail’s Calculator on all large HE shells and large rockets give numbers surprisingly similar to those values above: A couple HESH rounds are included here, but the blast penetration of such shells is not displayed ingame, thus it is estimated based on similar-size HE shells.

America:

Spoiler
  • 105mm M4, M1 HE shell: 59mm + 27mm blast
  • 114mm M8 Rocket: 27mm + 24mm blast
  • 105mm T5E1, T30E1 shell: 163mm + 20mm blast
  • 120mm T53, M73 shell: 186mm + 29mm blast
  • 120mm M58, M356 shell: 139mm + 39mm blast
  • 155mm T7, M107 shell: 152mm + 61mm blast
  • 155mm M126E1, M107 shell: 107mm pen + 61mm blast
  • 155mm M185, M107 shell: 142mm + 61 mm blast
  • 152mm Gun/Launcher M81, M657A2 shell: 90mm + 38mm blast
  • 127mm HVAR rocket: 108mm pen + 36mm blast
  • 298mm Tiny Tim: 114mm pen + 74mm blast

Germany:

Spoiler
  • 150mm s.I.G.33, I.Gr.38 shell: 30mm pen + 61 mm blast
  • 105mm StuH42, F.H.Gr shell: 59mm pen + 22mm blast
  • 150mm W.Gr. 41 Rocket: 46mm pen + 27mm blast
  • 105mm K.18, Gr.19 shell: 136mm pen + 23mm blast
  • 128mm K.40, Sprgr. L/5 shell: 184mm pen + 37mm blast (Compares well to above example)
  • 128mm KwK44/PaK44, Sprgr. L/5: 146mm pen + 37mm blast
  • 380mm RW61 mortar, 38cm R Spgr.4581 rocket: 56mm pen + 82mm blast
  • 105mm KwK46 L/68, Sprgr. L/4.4 shell: 151mm pen + 20mm blast
  • 210mm Wfr.Gr. 21 rocket: 68mm pen + 62mm blast

Russia:

Spoiler
  • 420mm TT-250 rocket: 17mm pen + 83mm blast
  • 122mm M-30 howitzer, OF-462 shell: 75mm pen + 37mm blast
  • 152mm M-10T howitzer, OF-530 shell: 95mm pen + 48mm blast
  • 152mm ML-20S, OF-540 shell: 137mm pen + 49mm blast
  • 107mm ZiS-6, OF-420 shell: 118mm pen + 27mm blast
  • 130mm B-13, OF-46 shell: 201mm pen, 36mm blast
  • 152mm 2A33, 3OF25 shell: 137mm pen + 62mm blast
  • 122mm A-19/D-25, OF-471: 154mm pen + 37mm blast (Compares well to above example of being “equally effective at tank-busting compared to the AP”)
  • 122mm 2A31, 3OF24/56: 133mm pen + 51mm blast
  • 100mm D-10, OF-412 shell: 163mm pen + 19mm blast
  • 152mm M-64, OF-540 shell: 166mm pen + 49mm blast
  • 130mm S-70, OF-482M shell: 211mm pen + 37mm blast
  • 152mm M-69, 152mm HE shell: 236mm pen + 49mm blast
  • 152mm LP-83, HE: 231mm pen + 61mm blast
  • 132mm M-13 rocket: 65mm pen + 40mm blast

Britain:

Spoiler
  • 178mm Hedgehog Mortar: 34mm pen + 65mm blast
  • RP-3 rocket: 36mm pen + 44mm blast
  • 183mm QF L4A1, Shell L1 HESH: 183mm pen + 65-70mm pen blast
  • 165mm L9A1 demolition gun, L33A1 HESH: 26mm pen + 65-70mm pen blast
  • 155mm G6 L/45, M1 shell: 217mm pen + 63mm blast
  • Uncle Tom, Triplex RP: Comparable to Tiny Tim, but diameter isn’t shown ingame
  • Red Angel: AP-based penetration value already listed ingame, 168mm pen + 70mm blast

Japan:

Spoiler
  • 150mm Type 38 Howtizer, Type 92 HE: 37mm pen + 55mm blast
  • 120mm Schneider-Canet 1898, HE: 86mm pen + 25mm blast
  • 120mm Navy Short Gun, Short HE: 23mm pen + 31mm blast
  • 120mm 10th Year Type, Ordinary Mod.1 HE: 143mm pen + 25mm blast
  • 105mm Exp/Type 5, Exp. HE: 162mm pen + 30mm blast
  • 155mm NSJ L/30, M107 HE: 112mm pen + 61mm blast
  • 155mm NSJ L/30, Type 75 HE: 154mm pen + 54mm blast
  • 155mm JSW L/52, both HE shells: 223-224mm pen + 61-64mm blast
  • 130mm Type 75 rocket: 176mm pen + 51mm blast
  • Japanese Type 5 No.6 aircraft rocket calibers are also not known

China (only one unique gun):

Spoiler
  • 120mm Type 71, 120-HE: 149mm pen + 33mm blast
  • PLZ-83 uses the Russian 152mm ML-20S cannon
  • PLZ-83-130 uses the Russian S-70 cannon

Italy (also only one unique gun, why the 105/25 M43 has no HE is beyond me, real gun probably does):

Spoiler
  • 100mm Cannone da 100/17, Granata Mod.32 HE: 46mm pen + 27mm blast

France:

Spoiler
  • Lorraine 155 uses the same gun as the M109G
  • 100mm SA47 L/58, Obus explosif: 182mm pen + 18mm blast
  • 142mm ACRA, MUC HE rocket: 103mm pen + 36mm blast
  • AMX-50 variations use the M103’s cannon
  • 155mm GCT F1, OE 155 56 HE: 183mm pen + 54mm blast

Sweden:

Spoiler
  • 114mm Psv.H/18 howitzer, akr 32/41 HE: 35mm pen + 25mm blast
  • 150mm m/02 recoilless rifle, sgr m/38 HE: 38mm pen + 48mm blast
  • 105mm kan m/44, sgr m/44 LT HE: 51mm pen + 23mm blast
  • Same as above on Ikv 103 w/ lower velocity: 40mm pen + 23mm blast
  • 155mm kanon m/60, sgr m/60 shell: 209mm pen + 58mm blast
  • 150mm m/51 rocket: 97mm pen + 39mm blast
  • 180mm m/49 rocket: 92mm pen + 43mm blast

Israel:

Spoiler

Nothing unique

This would help many machines with such large calibers actually be worth the punishing reload consistently, but sadly this would not help the Churchill III AVRE due to its velocity being too low. As you can see with other slow howitzers, there’s not much contribution from the weight if it is not fired very fast. And the Churchill Petard mortar is 50 m/s.

2 Likes
3

I mean besides almost no range, if you go into the test area you can one shot the tiger 2 with it which is ridiculous but also funny

4

Not sure where you get the idea that HE rounds would be able to penetrate a steel plate even remotely near their caliber size. Even half the caliber is stretching it.

5

I remember seeing a document in a discussion on shell penetration on the old forum straight-up showing this, along with Russian 122mm HE penetrating around 150mm.

1 Like
6

Well, don’t belive everything you see.

7

Either way, the intent of implementing such a change (making HE effectively a lower-grade AP) is to answer the calls for armor degradation from repeated impacts, as well as address some funny business with how HE sometimes works and sometimes doesn’t, without needing to add a whole new mechanic.

For example, an artillery-size shell from an ISU-152 hitting a Panther in the frontal turret ripped the turret off of the thing from just the impact force. Ingame we have no such mechanic for cases where overpressure fails to trigger, but impact force alone would do such a thing.

This is most apparent when the various derp artillery are used against heavy tanks (IS-1, IS-2, KTs, T29/T34/T32s/IS-3/IS-4M/Maus). A shell that size would easily break the turret ring and render the tank non-functional, but in too many cases HE acts like shooting a marshmallow at them.

8

You should do some more reseach on tanks.

Tanks getting disabled by larger caliber HE rounds to the turret is just a myth.

There are only two possible scenarios:

  • The HE is fired with delay: The HE round shatters on impact with the armor of the tank
  • The HE round is fired with instant fuze: The HE round explodes on impact, creating a shockwave and fragmentation form the shell body.

The shockwave is reflected from the armor and the fragments can only penetrate light armored targets. Only thin armor plates can be destroyed by the force of the shockwave.

If you think large caliber HE would disable any tank with a hit to the turret, why would tanks even have AP rounds when they can just fire 120-152mm HE rounds against any type of target?

Especially in modern times with highly accurate fire control systems.

A 122mm HE round could definately mess up a WW2 medium tank, destroy it or disable it but it didn’t make AP rounds redundant.

1 Like
9

Kid named HESH be like

10

Well then how do you explain cases like large HE ripping turrets off of fairly heavy tanks like Panthers, if they are supposedly so ineffective?

If giving HE the numbers the calculator spits out without modification is too ridiculous, then what does need to happen to properly model instances of turrets being torn off?

Part of why I am all for this is because making the derp artillery pieces able to rein in even the heaviest tanks with ease would then help enable decompression, making all the HEAT-spewing light tanks no longer necessary to rein in heavy spam, allowing those to rise in BR dramatically.