Changes to Bomber Survivability Feedback and Discussion

[HooFnET]

Citing a 1946 OSRD report on Photoelectric Fuzes (which react strictly to light/shadow variations) is completely irrelevant.

[RoyalWaffles]

A modifier within reason, absolutely massive bombers such as b52s have survived large missiles before.

You had in HARMs way during the gulf war getting smashed in the tail by a HARM (it tracked the radar for the tail gun, direct 21kg tnt impact to the tail and controls, still flew)

Then you had B52s in operation Linebacker 2, eating SA-2s that had a 130kg warhead, Numerous cases of near misses and DIRECT impacts

And then you had Quilt 3, which was hit by not one, not two, but THREE SA-2s (130kg of tnt EACH) and manage to fly into friendly airspace.

As for the earlier conversation regarding our B29s surviving missiles, well, maybe not a 130kg warhead missile. But a 40kg? maybe given its relative size

[HooFnET]

As long as the aircraft generates sufficient lift, it can literally circle the globe in that condition.

[RoyalWaffles]

As long as the fuel tanks still hold fuel xD

[HooFnET]

Lol I forgot about that XD

[BeautifulTai_wan]

You gotta read it to understand it my dude

[BeautifulTai_wan]

This would be optimal but also making it so the bomb cannot be deployed below a certain altitude (I know for a fact this is a very unpopular opinion) and allowing the conventional explosive to be detonated while the bomb is still inside the bomber (without nuclear yield as would be realistic) would help greatly in making low BR nukes more counterable when these changes to the DM are implemented

[HooFnET]

Alright buddy, the document you shared convinced me. Now, how can you prove to me that Gaijin hasn’t coded the missiles this way

[BeautifulTai_wan]

The video analysis that was posted earlier that started this entire discussion?

Changes to Bomber Survivability Feedback and Discussion

You can visually see it exploding at a distance. It does not hit the plane directly. 40kg of explosives exploding a dozen or more meters away from a reinforced monocoque airframe designed to withstand huge punishment, while also being mostly hollow, won’t bring it down or do much damage. It likely won’t even do significant damage. There is a reason why nuclear warheads were considered to deal with these types of bombers. [image] [image] There’s simply nothing in the way of the lethal explosio…

Ok i am actually exhausted right now my eyes have difficulty remaining open it is time for me to rest

[HooFnET]

@BeautifulTai_wan

according to gaijin proximity fuses in the game are programmed to only go off when they detect the target within their radius is getting further away from the weapon, and only then should the warhead be triggered

you mentioned that Gaijin didn’t code it correctly, can you prove this?

[KhorneFlakez1337]

@RoyalWaffles

A modifier within reason, absolutely massive bombers such as b52s have survived large missiles before.

Definitely. Though I am looking at this from a gameplay perspective, rather than a realism one.

There are three reasons why I don’t want bombers to become too tanky right now:

1. The ticket drain problem needs to be fixed. Ground pounding should be a reliable way to win a match, if there are only a couple of players left in the enemy team. (This would fix other problems as well, but those aren’t relevant here)

2. SPAA and SAMs in ground battles need to remain effective against bombers.

3. People that bring anti-bomber weapons should be rewarded for using those weapons appropriately and in a skilled manner. A2A missiles don’t need to deal a ton of damage against planes, just a bit more than they do currently on the dev-server, but actual anti-bomber weapons should be big threats for bombers.

[KhorneFlakez1337]

I hate that this is an unpopular opinion lol

People just want nukes to be guaranteed wins, despite getting one involves a lot of luck and not just skill. The way nukes are earned in WT also incentivizes lone-wolf gameplay when WT should be a team game with focus on objectives, rather than just kills.

[Addlerus]

@Just_Baron

40kg of explosives exploding a dozen or more meters away from a reinforced monocoque airframe designed to withstand huge punishment, while also being mostly hollow, won’t bring it down or do much damage.

Do you know how modern AA missiles work? They launch a field (either cone- or ring-shaped) of high-speed pre-formed shrapnel towards their target. This shrapnel is even capable of penetrating steel/titanium armor used in some attack aircraft. It will tear any aluminum alloy part to pieces.
Nuclear warheads for air-to-air missiles were developed bc the accuracy of early AA missiles (and their proximity fuses) was abysmal and they were extremely vulnerable to ECM, which further reduced their accuracy.

[lynx15]

@Just_Baron

. 40kg of explosives exploding a dozen or more meters away from a reinforced monocoque airframe designed to withstand huge punishment, while also being mostly hollow, won’t bring it down or do much damage

thats not how an A2A missile works…

[KhorneFlakez1337]

To be fair, that is how most A2A missiles work in WT

[PercussionCap]

@RoyalWaffles

B29 gunners alone had something like a ridiculous 11:1 KD against japanese fighters

Overclaiming from gunners has always been a thing.

@RoyalWaffles

the remaining 1/3rd was to fighters and flak combined

And it’s a miracle even one was shot down if they were this strong.

@RoyalWaffles

In Korea their numbers change thanks to things like more radar guided AA and Mig 15s

Cool, so if we take some MiG-15s they’ll surely make short work of a B-29 right?

@RoyalWaffles

Also how the hell are you managing to get them to eat missile after missile? I cant seem to get that result

This has been happening every time I launch on them.

@Ayrek2023

Do bombers feel more realistic now?

Well, one ate a Sparrow from the front, right into the fuel tank and wing root, and was still flying in formation. I think that says enough lol

@dovah4

I mean… You’re freezing your balls off, you’re getting shot at and you’re dodging fire simultaneously. At the same time, you were probably being shot at by headlight rounds that spooked you even further.

And yet these pilots still caused huge losses to bomber raids. That’s my implication.

@Just_Baron

It explodes on the outside at a distance because it’s a proximity fuse weapon.

Yes, and?

@Just_Baron

40kg of explosives exploding a dozen or more meters away from a reinforced monocoque airframe designed to withstand huge punishment, while also being mostly hollow, won’t bring it down or do much damage. It likely won’t even do significant damage

pure cope

@Just_Baron

There is a reason why nuclear warheads were considered to deal with these types of bombers.

Nuclear warheads were designed to engage entire formations, break them up, and get them separated so they could be engaged individually - in the case of USA this would be with the contact-fused AIM-4 Falcon which I showed above can and WILL hit a B-29 twice for no noticeable damage.

@Just_Baron

The fragmentation would shred nearby surfaces, but the interior is mostly space and would be capable of blocking most fragmentation at this range. Realistically, it would do next to nothing but blow off exterior components at that distance and maybe warp the frame. That distance is what keeps the plane airworthy.

Cool story but you should put that in the “Fiction” aisle

@PercussionCap

Meanwhile this is what a QB-17 looks like after being hit by a single Nike Ajax:

Nike Ajax has a warhead with ~70kg of explosives; each Phoenix there has ~35kg, and I’m firing a volley of 6. Compare the IMMEDIATE destruction of the real thing vs the one in-game that took the rough equivalent of three Nike Ajaxs and is both still in one piece and still flying.

@Just_Baron

Note the missile targets the wing with a impact

Wow that’s crazy

@PercussionCap

I also tried AIM-7M.

Very close proxy fuse trigger or direct impact, right in the wing root weakspot where IRL pilots were told to aim for, and there’s a massive fuel tank right there

Shortly after it put two fires out and returned to flying in formation with the other B-29.

@HooFnET

The reason for these damages, as I’ve said many times, is a design and coding problem with the missiles

…Which somehow only happens against bombers due to their comically fictional damage models and not against any other target

@HooFnET

No, first watch your own video properly, that was a Type 99 mk1.

That’s only half of the guns on it. You’d know this if you actually played the game.

@HooFnET

Watch the video again and you can see that your bullets landed in the areas above the MG mark on the tail.

competitive gaslighter

@Just_Baron

My Grammarly is doing silly corrections. The point is, the missile shatters the propellers, which causes a huge loss of lift

shut it down chatgpt

@KhorneFlakez1337

They really need to add some modifiers for specific weapons, so large anti-bomber guns and both rockets and missiles deal a lot more damage to bombers.

I still have a feeling that the Phoenixes proxy fuze triggers too early, but that’s an additional issue on-top of the lack of damage then lol

All these missiles have 0 issues killing aircraft if they hit/proxy on them. It’s a bomber issue.

- YouTube

[FAILIAH]

THEY ARE TOO SURVIVABLE NOW. IRL A B-17 SHOULD DIE TO 3-4 30MMS BUT NOW APPERANTLY IT CAN TANK MORE THAN DOUBLE THE FULL AMMOLOAD OF THE 109G WITH 30MM GUNPODS. gaijin come on you can do it man. just make it so that it matches irl data.

[KhorneFlakez1337]

@PercussionCap

All these missiles have 0 issues killing aircraft if they hit/proxy on them. It’s a bomber issue.

I’m not saying the issue isn’t related to the bombers, what I’m trying to say is that, even if the damage model wasn’t as extreme as it is right now on the dev server, the proxy fuze of the Phoenix has such a large trigger distance that it ends up dealing less damage than it should.

[PercussionCap]

@KhorneFlakez1337

the proxy fuze of the Phoenix has such a large trigger distance that it ends up dealing less damage than it should.

From a front aspect its more than capable of taking out the pilot. That has no bearing on the current fictional bomber DMs though.

[Owner203]

Welcome to the thread