Everything you posted there was public work created by Mariusz Magier of the Polish WITU (Military Institute of Armament Technology), so it’s fine, but they’re also just estimates not based on actual tests.
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Having that document as reference gives us a good foundation of expected minimums, so we know where our floor is when modelling it - “CR2 can’t go below those figures” would be a fair statement with a primary source. However, the final Challenger 2 design, armor values, etc, can’t be drawn from these values unless you’re looking to model CR2 off absolute minimum specs from the original design requirements
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Still most thing say 560-600 for the Dm43. Maybe you have a different source, but i can only work with those values
Well, they can be because SRL 4026 in fact does tell us that protection could be stretched to 600mm KE/900mm CE, however that is still worse than the current in-game protection by a mile… so we’ve arrived at a point where CR2’s in-game protection does not match basic requirements, nor improved requirements, but exceeds them - and then this thread pops up saying it’s still too low…?
That said, the 70MM RHA plate for LFP is the least of this tanks problems lmao
If you look at the first screenshot of DM43 you posted, it states 560 - 600mm against FLAT steel plate, the numbers on SRL 4026 have to be for an angled plate (because they also are for both CHARM 3 and M829A1), unless they aren’t and the Brits lied to themselves because angled penetration for DM43 at LoS 60 exceeds 670mm.
If that is the thing it changes some things. I did not seen anything on those 2 screens that tell armor is angled
From the pages you’ve shared there, the document only specifies “Hull”. Not “Lower Glacis” or “LFP” or “lower plate”. Just the hull.
Overall, i’d be dubious about relying on SRL 4026. It doesn’t provide enough information, but rather sweeping remarks, that don’t mention Challenger 2s actual development, design considerations, materials, armor composition, anything actually useful beyond minimum values.
I wouldn’t get too carried away with it
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Welp, that is on the top
Oh those things
NVM
Alright.
FYI, i’m not saying 500mm figure is final (that was a smidge of trolling), but you really should not be expecting CR2s protection to somehow be better than it already is in the game :p
To be honest, i would expect it. Cr2 went many upgrades, some of them must have been to the internal armor. It would not fit any current standard with the 500mm
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ah this reminds me of our Leo2 PSO protest, everyone was so enthusiastically gathering evidence until gaijin straight up denied it
That’s better! :D
That does however confirm that CR2 met 4026’s standards and had a very high potential of succeeding them.
Which…again unfortunately doesn’t tell us the final values of the tank, location of armor, type used, how far it exceeded the design requirements, what version of CR2 was tested etc.
What i’m saying is CR2 in its current state lacks any evidence or reasoning for the values it has, and needs to be properly looked into.
Using 4026 as the actual figures is a bit of a stretch though lmao
I was the person who originally went to the archives and took those photographs. SR(L) 4026 was the staff requirement issues for the replacement of the chieftain tank. The protection requirements listed in SR(L) is the minimum value required to provide protection from the T-80U’s APFSDS round and gun launched ATGM.
At the time of the document the Challenger 2 had already been selected as the army’s next tank, and was stated to meet or exceed all aspects of SR(L) 4026. The document was discussing upgrades that could be made to the Challenger 1 so that it could be brought up to SR(L) 4026 standard (as the army couldn’t afford as many Challenger 2s as they wanted).
That is to say that the protection figures listed in SR(L) 4026 are not necessarily the protection figures of the Challenger 2, they are just the lower bound for what the Challenger 2 armour could be.
The CHARM 3 penetration is interesting though. It is unfortunate that the angle isn’t specified, but the penetration is listed as being superior to M829A1, while in game it has inferior performance.
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Yes, but it also tells us that simply demanding for the armour to be “better” is misguided, because we know what both the minimal and improved requirements for the tanks were (also, even if they’re saying “hull”, they mean where the composite is, nobody differentiates between UFP, LFP, MFP etc in real life like we do here).
Solid info! Cheers man :)
Yes, but from other resports we’re also aware that the steel the British used was usually of worse quality than say, German one, relevant post by Wiedzmin on tanknet:
Another post by methos sums it up as penetration against British test plates was 18 - 22% higher than against German ones:
https://www.tanknet.org/index.php?/topic/26188-challenger-ii-leclerc-armor-for-sb/page/4/#comment-1707759
So sure, it could’ve been 700mm at a very high angle against a British armour plate, but if it was a test against a German armour plate the penetration would decrease to astounding ~588mm instead.
Another thing I gotta mention, for CHARM 3 to perforate that much while being much shorter than M829A1, it would have to have a velocity exceeding 1800m/s, while also being heavier than M829A1 (if we’re to believe the dimensions used by Gaijin), while not having that much more propellant, if any.
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This post’s main goal is to garner awareness that the tank isn’t accurate and to get the developers and community talking to each other: if it’s worse its worse. If it’s actually that value, great. If it’s better, that’s cool too. But there’s a lot wrong with CR2, which people buy premiums, pay money, invest a significant amount of time to get and work hard to achieve in game, only for it to be a really poor implimentation
The devs are aware, you don’t really have to worry about that, they just choose to ignore it like with anything else :)
If you’re a true British player, you should be aware that the fight for side armour being buffed has been waged since 2019 but to no avail.
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at this point I simply feel hopeless, Leclerc azur/ leo2 PSO/chally TES… I think it’s intentional
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