A frontal arc to the centreline of the panel would be the cone I showed.
Your diagram is not representative of the tests as it would no longer be a frontal arc.
No even on your diagram at 60 degree toward the frontal arc the 25mm APFSDS only has some 48mm of penetration.
There would only need to be 48mm of material in the block to stop the round at that angle.
48mm might be better than 30mm
if the block is filled front to back, then I can pretty guaratee if you measured it as per your last diagram there is some ~48mm of material in LOS of that hit.
Right, but we’re not testing the penetrative qualities of 25mm APFSDS, this test is about the KE resistance of a block of ASPRO-HMT. Whereby you’d want to be firing in a 30 degree arc frontally, to engage all of the composite tiles found inside.
If you exceed that impact angle, you begin to miss tiles completely, reducing the total thickness of the material required to penetrate.
For this reason, STANAG 4569 is tested on individual tiles, not on specific vehicles as i’ve shown in multiple sources, and within ± 30 degrees so you are always engaging the full KE resistance of ASPRO-HMT.
Go beyond 30 in either direction and you begin missing tiles with the projectile and you are not given an accurate indication of the entire blocks KE resistance.
7 Likes
If ASPRO-HMT can resist 25MM APFSDS at higher impact angles, it would actually be in favour of even higher KE resistance for the entire block, as less composite tiles are required to reach the STANAG 5 claim.
So hitting it frontally, where there is now more armor, you would see no penetration like in previous tests and even more composite tiles to go through for more KE resistance??
3 Likes
exactly, how would rafael acertain the level of performance if the tes was conducted at an angle higher than 30º? the test has to be done in the frontal arc of the block
What do you mean!? The rating is literally based on hitting it with the round in the angles specified. I’m sorry I’m out I can’t do this argument anymore.
Its frontal arc protection at +/- 30 degree with the sides “INCLUDED” not tested alone. Frontal arc protection has a specific definition which is this…
from here;
How can this apply to the Challenger 2 or ASPRO-HMT?
1 Like
It carries the STANAG protection definitions don’t get lost of the “light vehicles part”.
stanag is a method of standardization. for example armored glass for said veicles can reach stanag 4, now do you think the ppl who make the glass force the buyer to put it at a 30º angle? no the glass must be able to defeat that level of threat at 0º because they dont know where the glass will be mounted.
2 Likes
I don’t know how I can convince you that more composite tiles = more armor, where less composite tiles = less armor
That’s just…how that is?
Lets use your definition for a moment then and say it’s 30 degrees off the centreline of the vehicle (It’s not, we’ve seen in literally every single source from the company that conducts the testing, that they shoot individual panels, not arrays) but lets say it’s the vehicle’s centreline.
We’d be shooting an individual ASPRO-HMT brick at something like 60 degree angle of attack.
Rafael has said that ASPRO-HMT reaches STANAG 5 standards.
So if we’re getting STANAG 5 certification when we’ve gone through only 60-70% of the total composite tiles inside, decreasing our angle of attack surely exposes the round to MORE composite tiles and therefore higher protection?
At higher angles (red) you have penetrated only 2 tiles in this diagram.
At a flat 0 degrees angle, you have penetrated over 7 tiles.
So if 2 tiles = STANAG 5 rating, 7 tiles then would be far exceeding that.
2 Likes
So regardless of interpretation @Gunjob, the KE resistance must be higher than a flat 30 KE we see in game.
3 Likes
Or if Gunjob won’t participate in this anymore, @Smin1080p maybe?
Look, i’m not trying to rile anyone up here, but this is just…common sense now? More armor is more protection?
2 Likes
then has this become a “my source vs your source”? legwolfs source actually showed the testing conditions of the ERA and how a block can achieve the STANAG 5 label.
the source you and smin keep posting is literally only mentioning light armoured vehicles and while it says
it shows no actual indication of where the ERA was placed, nor what ERA was placed or if any ERA was actually placed, its a generalization of LAV armour requirements to nato standards.
7 Likes
This is fascinating to watch tbh
3 Likes
Would this be correct ??
here, ballistic resistant glass that can reach stanag lvl 4. it even has a video of testing.
somehow that glass has a stanag lvl 4 but aspro-h cant reach lvl 5.
someone tell the phone number of MOD. i want to sell them glass
4 Likes
Gunjob’s point (correct me if i’m wrong) is that the ASPRO-HMT is STANAG 5 certified, when tested 30 degrees off centreline of the vehicle.
So we’re looking at a 60 degree impact angle. There’s no way this impact angle allows for the entire composite array inside the blocks to be engaged, so you’re only hitting some tiles. not all of them.
Even still, it got STANAG 5 certified, with just the round failing to penetrate through those limited composite tiles.
If the impact angle was 0, we’d be firing against even MORE composite tiles, and therefore the round would be facing higher KE resistance.
So the current game implementation of 30mm KE is incorrect. at 60 degrees angle of attack (30 degrees off centreline of vehicle), ASPRO-HMT should have AT MINIMUM 84mm of KE resistance.
At lower angles like 0 degrees, we should be engaging more composite material and the KE resistance therefore rises to higher values. Perhaps not by much, but up to something like 100mm KE.
The big thing here, is we can see the testing centers fire at individual tiles, NOT the array. This is proven across multiple test centers. So we cannot count the steel backing board in this calculation. ONLY ASPRO-HMT. The blocks themselves are STANAG 5, not the armor array. Therefore:
60 degree AoA = 84mm KE
0 Degree AoA = 104mm KE?
5 Likes
yea basicly, rafael reached the conclusion it reasists 25mm ap firing at the side of the block