CAS problem

[warrior412]

@DESPAIR7991

Just bunch of nonsense… Population problem?? Few years ago population was 45-50k, wasn’t population problems (don’t tell me Gaijin added many mods and BRs since then, there’s only few of them) now is minimum 100k. So there’s no population problem at all for TO mode, but for “CAS domination” mode will be.

The ‘population issue’ is not only about the overall player numbers, it is about the number of players available to the matchmaker at any given time for the set BR range (which seeks +/- 1.0 BR for assembling the matches).

Two modes, CA and TO, would put greater demand on the MM to fill parallel BRs (say RB GFs 4.0 and RB TO 4.0…and it gets more complicated if one mode is preferred over the other). As Gaijin is very sensitive about queue times (especially in yesteryears), they may react adversely to queue times doubling even when that doubling is not an issue (a la an increase from 30 to 60 seconds).

Beyond the problem of ‘flat spots’ where the matchmaker has difficulty assembling matches due to other reasons (unpopular range, heavily favored mode, etc), the real issue around population based on history would be less the population at hand and more Gaijin’s reaction to it.

Queue time anxiety has been a big factor in why Gaijin has compressed BRs in the past…and that obviously has its own ramifications. “Population issues” could well come up (I’d say they’d be largely minor and scattered), but the real issue would likely be the latter…Gaijin’s reaction.

The ‘population issue’ framing is shorthand for all of this.

@DESPAIR7991

I don’t get it at all… You think people have no eyes and can’t see what is broken in game? If I’m taking bad about CAS I’m magically make people hate it??? What the actual F@@@???

Everyone plays and sees CAS problem, that’s why we have so many posts about it.

Putting aside the imbalance of 9.X+ (the top tiers of the game have always featured balance issues due to technology creep), there are few reports of ‘broken’ CAS (ex. the Yak-9K).

Outside of top tier, almost all posts complaining about CAS are complaints about defeats dealt by enemy CAS–not anything being ‘broken’ or functionally inaccurate about how the enemy aircraft is doing what it’s done. Obviously, an enemy vehicle defeating a person doesn’t mean that enemy unit is broken…it just means the enemy was successful in defeating them.

Having played RB GFs extensively from 1.0 to 9.X, I cannot say I’ve seen any serious “CAS problem” to discuss. The Yak-9K’s flight model is bogus right now and it needs fixing…but that’s about it (it’s still entirely vulnerable to enemy fire too.)

The real issue with balance (air, ground and overall) starts at/beyond 9.X as technology gets emphasized over player experience and skill. At that level and above, modules matter more and more as stock syndrome becomes increasingly painful. That is where the lion’s share of legitimate CAS complaints originate: top tier is a mess.

[gangsterism]

@Ghost_of_TelAviv

It’s just people who can’t be asked to spawn SPAA or CAP whining honestly.

how dare these lazy pigs not play air RB with me, in the ground gamemode?!
i mean if you dont enjoy sitting back and relaxing at spawn while playing SPAA the entire game, why did you even download war thunder? its in the name… thunder implies the sky, therefore there are obviously planes in the game. you are outrageous for wanting to play tanks in the tank game!

[Sytryse]

You are fighting against fanatical CAS supporters who believe that CAS is weak and TO mode would ruin CA mode. You can explain to him in details and he would still said that CAS is not dangerous in CA mode.

[DESPAIR7991]

Do you know how statistics work? Or do you know what statistic is??

[DESPAIR7991]

Don’t see problem under 9.0 CAS??? Okay bro nothing to talk about anymore… Getting killed from something you can’t counter or defend yourself is okay i get it.

[gangsterism]

This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.

[Ghost_of_TelAviv]

@gangsterism

the only statistic he cares to understand is “107% of war thunder players enjoy playing against CAS”

Must be fun making up your little scenarios in your head and getting upvoted by fellow whiners.

The hivemind is mad.

[warrior412]

@DESPAIR7991

Don’t see problem under 9.0 CAS??? Okay bro nothing to talk about anymore…

Tank deaths to aircraft are a very paltry sum below 9.0. Historically, the rough tally of tank deaths attributed to aircraft has sat at ~8-12%. Meanwhile, aircraft are 50% of the potential playable vehicles of the mode. When ~50% of a mode’s usable vehicles only account for ~10% of its kills, those vehicles aren’t problematic.

Furthermore…you cited what others claimed to ‘see’ as proof…but a different observation is not valid enough to even discuss? Seriously?

@DESPAIR7991

Getting killed from something you can’t counter or defend yourself is okay i get it.

There are active defensive countermeasures to aircraft (SPAA, friendly aircraft and mounted weapons (especially MGs/small CNN). There are also passive defensive measures including camouflage, physical cover and simply moving. It’s simply wrong to speak as if enemy CAS has no counter play (they cannot even influence tickets).

Below the mess of 9.X+, the belief that deaths to CAS are inevitable is wholly unjustified…that’s just not how it is. The odds are if you die it’ll be to a tank, not to an aircraft, too. When you focus on not dying at all, you’ll improve your overall survivability as aircraft cause fewer deaths anyway.

[warrior412]

@Sytryse

You are fighting against fanatical CAS supporters who believe that CAS is weak and TO mode would ruin CA mode. You can explain to him in details and he would still said that CAS is not dangerous in CA mode.

Spoiler

“Fanatical CAS supporters” If you meant to refer to me, I’m a moderate…not even opposed to TO no less! It’s sad that TO advocates always insist on purity…even as that’s soured the community on much of what the TO crowd has said, tried and wanted.

Everything I said is simply respectful of the facts and realities as-is. Fanaticism is denying those things to buy into CAS hype…and to push nonsense like ‘ruination’ (which isn’t something that I said).

Being a tanker who flies, I’m just familiar with both aircraft and tanks (which is also good for getting a level-headed, unbiased perspective).

---

Plainly, CAS below 9.X has historically accounted for a paltry sum of kills (roughly 8-12%, depending on BR) consistently. As aircraft have no direct means of interacting with (capturing) zones, they have no real effect on gameplay except through killing…which means their contribution potential is limited.

Taken together, one could arguably describe CAS as relatively weak–especially given its far higher costs and more limited combat effectiveness (primarily due to ammunition)…most tanks certainly have more cost effectiveness based on their own costs and ammo loads. Recognizing these realities is factual, not fanatical.

As I stated previously, it’s very unfortunate that TO advocates continually hang themselves up on complaining about defeats by enemy aircraft rather than selling the concept of TO on its own merits. There is a big difference between pitching TO on its own potential as opposed to pitching TO ‘because CA is __’…and the near decade of inaction and languishing TO has seen now showcases it.

TO advocates can either keep howling about defeats by enemy aircraft being enemies…or they try to see TO realized by pressing the new idea on its own standing. The choice is theirs.

[JuicyKuuuuki]

Dang, sorry if me, actually trying and doing something to counter CAS on capable vehicles i play on bothers you. I’m not showing this to show off, but to show that anyone can do this if one actually puts more effort on fighting back than letting CAS dominate or quit.

[ゴトランド]

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[JuicyKuuuuki]

@ゴトランド

And if CAS are weak and SPAA are strong then how come all of your SPAA doesn’t have above 1.0 kda ?

So KDA matters again somehow. Typical! Only when its convenient i guess.

I only played vehicles I like, like every other player here. Not all my SPAA will have good KDA and some I haven’t touched. Some KDA are already ruined because i played them just to play them. Once I decided to learn proper SPAA gameplay, I fixed like maybe 2 or 3 and some I managed to get really good KDA. I don’t play other nations a lot, but did it just for the SPAA’s, but at least enough to show anyone can get 3+ KDA on multiple SPAA.
3.14 K/D on M247
5.16 K/D on SANTAL
2.91 K/D on Bosvark
5.07 K/D on SIDAM 25(Mistral)
12 K/D on Ozelot (need more games, but Im not a German Main)
etc…

I read its impossible to get good KDA on SPAA. I just did this to show it is. I can easily go back and ruin the KDA and play them just to play them.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@JuicyKuuuuki

So KDA matters again somehow.

For me the only issue here is that AI drones are counted as air kills.

The rest is great, love the work!

[JuicyKuuuuki]

wished they didn’t count honestly. but yes, most of the time its a miss due to how tiny they are.

[gangsterism]

@warrior412

When ~50% of a mode’s usable vehicles only account for ~10% of its kills, those vehicles aren’t problematic.

this is true when youre balancing the game with statistics. but this is a videogame, and people play it for enjoyment.
it doesnt matter what “low” percentage of ground vehicles get killed by CAS.
those vehicles get killed by something they cant do anything against, and thats it

@warrior412

There are active defensive countermeasures to aircraft (SPAA, friendly aircraft and mounted weapons (especially MGs/small CNN)

SPAA is only effective when youre the SPAA, and some tanks dont even have MGs (or have MGs that do nothing, dont have angles, etc)
there is practically no defense against CAS unless a teammate SPAA gets a lucky hit, which wont happen, and shouldnt be required to happen

@ULQ_LOVER

For me the only issue here is that AI drones are counted as air kills.

drones are overpowered when youre doing the scouting with markers thing, so they should count as air kills until (if) that gets fixed

[Ghost_of_TelAviv]

@ULQ_LOVER

For me the only issue here is that AI drones are counted as air kills.

They even used to count towards the 10 kill wager.

[ULQ_LOVER]

That is the issue when someone is trying to prove that SPAA are actually effective.

Not to mention videos showcasing destroying prop-plane at +10 B.R. that is flying in a straight line.

[StaszekJones]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/LNYTIj6B5CU

Ofc, what is funny here ? SPAA not even notice, there is a plane xD This is how TOP CAS work :D

[gangsterism]

“bUt NoBoDy PlAyS lIkE tHiS”, “ItS aCtUaLlY iMpRaCtIcAl”

[RunaDacino]

@ULQ_LOVER

For me the only issue here is that AI drones are counted as air kills.

This does make me wonder about this statistic earlier:

@warrior412 earlier claimed that CAS only accounts for “10% of tank deaths.”

How is this statistic obtained given that official gaijin statistics conflate both Air RB/SB and Ground RB/SB statistics for a given plane?

If I had taken say my Mustang Mk Ia statistics for instance, one would see that I have killed a whopping 5 ground targets with it and died 41 times.

Did I get these statistics flying GSB or ASB?

Did I get those 5 ground target kills on player tanks or A.I targets in Sim EC?

Did I die so many times to so little ground targets because of SPAA being effective or because I was an idiot and got greedy and got third party’d while dogfighting a Bf109 on the enemy side of Ruhr EC?

Same notion to my Yak-9K stats in GRB/ARB - are my 37 deaths to 29 ground kills because I died to SPAA or because I took it to ARB and died because I suck at dealing with furballs?

From whence does @warrior412 claim that only ~10% of ground vehicle deaths can be attributed to air vehicles in GRB or GSB? We don’t have any easy to scrap statistics for such.

Even scraping my per session statistics on Statshark, the only thing I see is:

Zero information if I had had flown my Mustang Mk Ia in ASB or GSB.

From all we know of this data, the 4x20mm hispanos are terrible in GSB! CAS weak.
(Truth is: I’ve never flown my Mustang in GSB and only got ground kills with it is because I couldn’t find anyone to shoot, I had a booster activated so I went on shooting PzIVs and Ostwinds on EC Tunisia to give me some score while waiting for players to join the match.)