LMAO, typical noob talk with strong “ignore list” vibes.
I played BF 109 F2 when 15mm HEF-T was bugged and every fragment of those had insane fire chance. Scored 12 kills and still had some ammo.
It was essentialy what incendiary would have been if it was as broken as HE.
APIT rips planes apart, yes, it starts fires too, but most of my targets get disassembled.
Currently you punch 2 frying-pan sized holes and they lose the wing. That’s the problem.
If you are hitting the rear edge of the wing or tail, 90% of your fragments are not hitting the target due to how the “fragmentation sphere” works.
Shell explodes on flaps or ailerons or elevator/rudder, even if they are GONE, the explosion range is very low in real shtter, so nothing reaches the main wing/tail area, and since the fragmentation is a sphere and not a cone like in reality, only small portion of fragments travels forward.
Hence real shtter HE is surprisingly bad when used from direct 6, but A LOT more potent if you are firing at some, even relatively small, angle.
None of these planes were able to RTB. Note how some would only have wing rip missing in WT. Note how they were all 8th Air Force victims in 1944 who were primarily flying Mustangs.
Instead we want the game to be balanced around exceptional edge cases where planes did RTB while missing wing tips / wing sections. You are literally advocating balancing the game around survivorship bias.
I know this is hard, but you can imagine their positions being switched, and both are taken out regardless. P-63A-5 has plenty of armor too, to protect against my “low velocity 12.7mm AP”. You can see how much good it did.
Why wouldn’t you lose your tail controls if the control surfaces themselves have been blown apart and lost most of their surface area? Why do you think they’re somehow immune to cannon fire?
And how long does it take you to fire all those shells vs an MK108 firing… four of them?
This is really funny to me because the Ho-103s do struggle quite badly against bombers, and aiming for engines is a necessity unless you want to spend all your ammo.
Most fly more than fine enough to RTB and be a threat again very soon.
A shell fired from 1.2km away, we’ll assume a Type 99-2 HEF shell since you mentioned that last time. And just for the sake of argument, we’ll also assume this 750m/s shell has no speed dropoff, against a receding target at 500kph.
This magical shell with no speed dropoff will take at least 2 seconds to hit you. That’s a really long time in an air battle to just move a little to the side. If you still get hit, he got lucky/you got unlucky, gg go next.
It was a very fun time, with the only negative being the disappointing platform.
So instead they’ll flatspin if they turn too hard due to airflow disruption, and instead of you getting the kill right away, they get to spin around for a while and maybe get stolen by a ratty teammate. Zero actual change, only gameplay made worse.
Or as seen on gun camera footage, their wing really just falls off.
…But I am at a small angle. You can even see the sun glaring off his nose in the first image. I riddled his entire plane from the tail assembly to the cockpit with hits, yet the tail did not fall off, the engine and pilot were taken out well before that.
It’s more clear here, you can see the fireworks display going on in front of the rudder.
Now this is one type
You can see a fireball come out of separated section, considerin this is a FW-190 A due to the short nose, we can assume that was an ammo rack of the outerwards 20mils found on some variants.
Now this is the one you will like.
Looks like a bf-109, but the spar still broke in an instant.
(Red is the 109 itself, orange is the actual wing that came off)
Since this is a 109 and the break was near the wing tip, it was 100% the spar and not some gunpod going kablooie.
Then there’s this poor soul who just…
…Blew up at the wing root
But most A2A at least in this video were fires or simply not really kills but rather hits blowing off stuff.
Spar durability is OK vs 50cals, the problem is that spars are also modeled like solid blocks, when they should be like this
A large gap for stuff to fly in and out. Instead of a giant cinderblock.
you can model spars in-game like this and add ammo racks if you want
I’ve won dogfights against tough opponents like Yaks while missing wingtips. Not the same as an entire wing but it wasn’t particularly hard either.
This already happens all the time. But if I win the duel and get good hits in, I expect to be rewarded. Unlike the early RealShatter days where this was a common sight:
By the way that’s a pair of 30mm and 20mm cannons hitting that Mk24’s cockpit. He took basically no damage.
And the A-21 is getting lit up by these glorious “mineshells”.
You again pretend like that 90% of the time a plane loses its wing it doesn’t crash into the ground in WT.
You’re just assuming. Might as well have been a explosive bullet exploding next to the pilot who did most of the damage.
It’s not like the game is super accurate with representation of bullet strikes on a flying target.
And why would you think that 5, 10, 20g explosive amount doesn’t determine HOW MUCH surface area gets blown apart?
Or how there’s a night and day difference between the surface area of a Bf 109 and an IL-2?
But for your conscience it doesn’t matter, because all planes must die in the same amount of hits.
Irrelevant, because the 30mm was created since a 20mm wouldn’t be able to do the same job.
It’s absolutely pointless to equip a 30mm MK 108 when you can bring down four B-17s with 120 rounds of 20mm + some 12.7mm explosive bullets, which also outrange the Mk 108 by a factor where there’s no actual benefit to ever chose the 30mm gun.
You trade 200 rounds of 20mm ammo for 65 switching to the MK 108 in a Bf 109.
While it should take 400 20mm Mineshells and 100 rounds of 30mm Mineshells on average to take down a B-17 with an average hit rate of 5%.
There’s also no difference between 30mm Mineshells with 75g filler and 88g filler in WT, when it’s the difference between 4 or 5 hits required.
It takes 2-3 20mm hits to deal the same lethal damage to a b-17s wings structure.
So being able to destroy 8-10 B-17 instead of just 4, with a single gun, doesn’t warrant the use use of 30mm guns compared to 20mm that are actually going to win you the match for destroying many fighters as well.
To bring down a B-17 with certainty, you’re either using at least two MG 151/20 with 500 rounds and Incendiary shells or bring at least one 30mm and extras guns.
Spoiler
Boi, I wonder why the D-12 was tuned for high altitude fights 🤔🤔
Guy sprayed 140 shells at me as I was climbing away, I thought he won’t lift his nose because his engine at that point was dying (critical hit) and I was plenty tired after carrying the match and staying out of his guns and baiting him away from AF to cook the leaking engine. 1 random shell hit, bye, bye. I was maneuvering, at that distance 1 shell to the wing should have done some rather symbolic damage. It broke the wing in half.
Stop wasting my time with your noob talk, seriously
By small I meant 20 degrees, not 5.
At the angle pictured you might be landing 15-20% of fragments insted of 10%. Still wings and horizontal/vertical stabilisers present a very thin profile and flaps/elevator/rudder/ailerons are very likely to get hit.
Yaks are notorious for essentialy ignoring wing damage.
But hey, lets make all planes paper, which doesn’t fix the problem, just makes Yaks armanent the hammer of God.
I guess throwing away weapon balance is preferred to improvements to damage modelling in game?
Speaking about spars as a construction of the wing is interesting but I am not sure how it can cause to the game
Spar is not only “belt” part what you showed but also a wall part which can be seen in the picture. Wall takes some of loads acting on the wing and spar cannot exist without the wall.
However I do not know how much damage of the wall effect to the spar in compare with damage to the belt. Most likely wall can continue to work as part of spar with a number of holes but their number is limited.
And most of the War Thunder aircraft have only spar belts as a DM element and only some have full spar modeled
In question of damage against spars one interesting report is described at the “Exploding Fuel Tanks” where P-51 (dont really remember) got only one hit to the spar by 12.7mm Ho-103 HE round and because of HE damage of the spar aircraft was decommissioned.
Yeah it didn’t broke at the air but damage was such that the aircraft had a chance to fall apart in the air when maneuvering at high G. Otherwise the plane would have continued to fly after repairs (where the pads could have been installed at the point of round impact)
I imagine it took a direct hit at the beam, making a „v“ shaped cut into the spar, threatening structural integrity under load.
Meanwhile during the test of explosive-incendiary mixtures in 35mm test containers placed next to a Spirfires main spar, most of the time the spar did not receive any significant damage from ~60g of explosive charges. At worse it blew some hole through the spar web.
Instead the blast tore the skin apart, to varying degree, based on the mixture used.
Here a 20mm Mineshell exploded inside the secondary wing spar, and it only made a whole through it.
Again the skin is torn up from the pressure buildup but the spar took very little damage in comparison.
Your reward is a very crippled opponent with a noticeable and predictable behaviour change.
The easier to predict your opponent is, the easier to outplay.
Also your example just showed that pilots are too tanky, if one more of those rounds landed on the tail the aircraft would have fallen out of the sky.
You want that your “incredibly” aimed shot at the enormous tail section to result in a kill?
You want that your “incredibly” aimed shot at the Wing to result in a kill?
We should make 7.7mil explode aircraft because someone nailed the engine of a F4U from 700m away then!
We should make this game an aircraft jousting simulator!
How would 12.7mm HE, hitting above the engine and well behind the pilot, penetrate his armor?
Uh huh. What about the reduced fragmentation effects from thinning the shell walls? Are you gonna demand a real-time FEM projectile simulation?
Good thing my hitrate isn’t 5%. That’s just 20x 20mm hits, and I have greater accuracy than real pilots thanks to mouse aim. It won’t take 20 hits to bring down a bomber if they all hit where I want.
20 hits, times 10, is 200 shells. So even in a highly realistic scenario, you’d be able to bring down ten B-17s with a single 109 with the 20mm cannon.
What you are ignoring is time on target. An MK108 can fire its two or three shells required to bring down such a bomber very quickly. MG151/20 does not have much higher firerate but must shoot 20 shells. So you have to stay on target for much longer, in an environment with dozens of bombers, all with gunners, and even escort fighters.
This is not the scenario in WT. There’s very little downside to taking your time and ensuring your hit rate is high.
As I said, he got lucky, gg go next. Also why would an explosive shell, that deals most of it damage based on chemical energy, depend on range? It’s not AP.
…That is about 20 degrees. 5 would be almost indistinguishable from directly behind.
He is turning as hard as possible, for most props under instructor control that’s about 12deg AoA, including P-63A-5. And I’m cutting into his turn since I’m pointed directly at him. So that would be near 20deg shooting angle. Certainly much more than 5.
Re-read the part where I said “against tough opponents like Yaks”.
Yak-3 to 3.0 🔥
Did you not play the game during early RealShatter days? It did not matter where you hit, every projectile rolled a D20 for damage, with the caveat that anything below an 18 did nothing. As I said, this was a common sight pretty much regardless of what you were using.
On the first screenshot I am firing at the full broadside of a Spitfire with two 20mm, and two 30mm cannons from about 60m away, for basically no damage because of bad fragment RNG.
Old RealShatter did exactly what you guys CLAIM you don’t want - it made 30mm cannons absolutely worthless because volume of fire was the only thing that could guarantee good damage.
If I was using 7.7s it would be more than understandable that they did very little. But when I fire at someone with four cannons at basically point blank range, and they took no damage aside from what, a yellow fuselage? Then I really might as well bring a dozen 7.7mm MGs instead, which I know would have done more damage here. Not to mention any kind of .50cal or similar gun.
J7W. I have FOUR 30mm cannons firing at this one 262. He ate at least eight hits at basically point blank range, that went just in front of the cockpit and pretty much right into the pilot’s face. No kill. Heavily damaged for sure, but still flying well enough to RTB!
Already simulated? Wait, more like removed via complains of people who didn’t read a shell’s statcard.
That super concentrated damage is the effect of the 20mm Mine round
Super thin case leads to less fragmentation.
YOUR ROUND with a thicker case should spread out, a lot of yellow everywhere
NOT putting a red or black wing of a round that sacrificed said case for more filler.
Fragmentation vs high explosive
But now it is just he and cranked up because little, frankly, dumbasses can’t accept yellow doesn’t always mean instant death.
I do not want real shatter, I want correct representation of differences in filler
You want to keep damage because YOU KNOW, Japanese 20mil aren’t very good, neither now or possible future.
Japan is a literal outlier in here, the 30mil beats the 20mils in almost all aspects.
