That’s the problem as well.
Just hiding it from research doesn’t mean vehicles are gone.
I mean, they definetly added some to 5.7 and created an entire 4.0 lineup at sweden. But then again it was not really needed as sweden already had a 3.7 strong lineup and 5.7 lineup there is just plain copypastes + strv 74.
And then again the T-72 didnt make addition to lineup, so it could be skipped by devs. Same with leopards and the Charioteer. The one really adding some to lineups was the T-55 but it at least has different cannon and looks a bit different so ig i can give it a tight pass as no-copypaste
If you say so? I mean the devs said that it was the reason to add. that may not be true but that what they advertise.
well looking at tanks only they gave them the “competitive” MBT even tho it wasnt really neded there as Leclerc aint that bad. So ig u right there?
tho them planes were the main reason to gib france a subtree and that gave them the “attackers” that france lacked of in some means? Still that was the justification devs gave us, its not my own thoughts.
I mean, i agree that it sure does play the role, even then devs say they are not in politics. But the main justification for subtrees, if you ask me, is just adding something each update to each country. That is purely my thought as i just notice how its copypastes added to subtrees just to make it look like added much :/
that is the reason why neither main country got the subtree (except for germany having Switzerland but they dont have an entire subtree yet, just some machines), even tho they tend to be more interesting.
It does not really, as India is part of Britain. I remember the chaos happening when that was first announced. Britain is cold with India rn. They might not be in war but they sure are not as close as were.
Tho other trees didnt make any controversy as they were safe af as countries there either have neutral status or were allies for a huge periods of time, thats for sure.
i mean to look back, all had beef with all. It is just about of us decideing how long ago the beef matters.
Well the M60 is also a kind of machinery that separates the Thai. And again - its not me saying that, its the advertisment Devs give when say “Thai in japan good”. Plus, the Thai subtree - as with Benelux and Hungary - was mainly aimed for the air to give Japan more attacker options. They got two Alpha Jets, some F-5s with attack armanment, the JAS39. So, its not that it was a lie.
I mean, Poland had no armored forces to begin with? WEll technically they DID have but all the polish projects of tanks BEFORE war were already dead weight french ww1 machinery, and after war they never created any prototype.
Same reason again, but then Chezh kept a huge production of local firearms, AFVs (both local and modernized USSR ones) and other stuff. I know they had no local tank production, but then again their projects were en route at later 40s and ended up there as their results had no comparison with neither IS-4 not T-54.
I believe you won`t tell me that them 38T and even the T25 project had any chances to be better than T-54.
Tho i believe that the USST govt did forbid the Skoda T50 project. But looking back, it wasnt even finished as a prototype yet, and the USSR govt just build them an entirely new plant to produce most modern T-54s which will then be replaced with T-72s. Soviet engeneeres werent stupid so i believe they forbid it for a reason.
to no longer operate? Mysteriously they still operate T-72s (yes, now the intent is to replace them. But “decided not to in 91”? THats one pure lie, they never changed their armed forces until got Leopard 2s in 2010s. Plus they still massively operate BTRs and BUKs.
them Toldi tansk were build based on Swedish Strv’s
Its old based off today. Them Centauro and Freccia’s the guy asks arent the most modern either. Plus its a matter of how we look at the “addition”. You may say “they got them because they`re old USSR tanks and hungary is an ally NOW”, i will say “They got them becasuse they’re new and hungary WAS an ally of faschist Italy THEN”. We again circle to the India-Britain quetion as its the most controvercial between them all. Same with Thai - they were allies in some early days before war, then were occupied by Japs during war, but they are allies now. So some claim this controvercy.
i mean now that we have su-30 of japan - thai… there are many more opportunities xD
Tho it would only ruin the game again. But as we cant ask for removal of the copypastes…
No doubt
referring to civil rebellions in Britain
is it? I mean wasnt it hard cutoff after the independence war?
im grateful for that as i literally didnt mean that poland is a subtree of germany. I just wanted to point out that at least one polish machine is positioned in the tree of their occupants. I dont know how the devs want to work with poland tho. They have several interesting machines, all of which are based on some other contry`s machines. So looking that Firefly sits in Britain, Leopard sits at Germany, and Thunderbolt sits in US, i guess its only natural to await the PT-91 at USSR?
ah so they alredy pointed that out. Alrighty then, question closed
if we talk about the “weapon system” that are avaliable?
I think not.
I mean, the 2c14 will not be as effective as Centauro and wont be positioned at same BR if added but the fact that it is a wheeler and comes to close battle ratings is enough to propose it as alternative.
I believe that AGM65s are effective enough and are positioned on so many different planes that its safe to say that is alternative. Then again i`l be more than pleased if the Kh38 gets removed from the game as its utterly effective and replaced with some agm65 analogue.
Arent them Kh29s not FNF? or am i misunderstanding it with another rocket?
something might have changed then. I remember solid players calling it a pantsir deleter.
fair enough, you made me realise that
also true, but to some extent its same. Because Kh38s were never exported to Malasya therefore they arent Malasyan at all, as the Yatagan isnt USSR built. If they had at least one on a different plane - your claim is fair enough.
I see. I believe we only touch it to that extent to follow the game’s logic.
xD bullseye
tho i have no beef with Bhishma as at least its modified at some extent. I believe that it can have a place there. Tho i dont understand why USSR didnt get its copy (or at least a different S version) as them US for example got the Stingray. That also feels utterly unfair as US never used the Stingers either.
I have a problem with that as its also unfair then. So they represent the allies that are fighting against each other in the game matches using the ally-provided equipement. And its okay if its arcade but looking back to 2017s where there were no such troubles but trophy techs - that looks bad to me.
I mean it is right but then its unfair to let some countries follow their position and forbid it to other because its “not right”. Its either its followed or changed
I suggest that you`re right but to extent where there are local modifications to add.
I suppose if it does not fit for a tree with 10% of clones, then fit it as Subtree without clones as done with SA. If it cant even fit as subtree with same abount of clones, then add those several non-copypastes as it is done with Poland (that honestly a bad example but it shows the way) and Canada - add several techs and fuggetaboutit.
I voted yes for their addition tho. So im okay with pushing them. But they are also a problematic matter as are used in most recent conflict.
universal justice
Notice I said “secondary justification”, not that it doesnt any play role. There are obviously more things to consider when adding subtree (such as padding out the lineups), but not all of them are equally important.
Hence benelux so far didnt bring any variety to france. it did however pad out french lineups a bit.
There was also CV90 but seeing as france at that point had VBCI-2 which filled same niche with extremely similiar cannon…but again, it did pad out their lineups.
Spitfire, Sea Hawk, Meteor, Hunter didnt bring any groundpound capabilities
belgian Mirage 5BA didnt bring any capability not covered by Super Etendard
belgian F-104G same story
only capability F-16s brought in regards to ground strikes were FnF mavericks, but even then france had PGMs.
the main justification for adding subtree to the game is most likely related to development cost - why wouldnt gaijin add hungary as a subtree to the game when they have license for 2A4, T-72M1, BTR-80, JAs-39 and models that require only slight alternations already at hand?
But thats question of whenever should subtree even appear in game; question of where in game (as in what main tree) it should appear is question of the historical, policital and defense ties.
Only after that the justification of variety comes into play, most likely when they are two possible candidates but one would benefit more. See Hungary - it could very well went to germany as a subtree, as the equipment is mostly similiar (Tigris, Leopard 2A4, 2A7HU, Pzh2000, T-72M1), but italy benefited from it more more, hence it went to Italy.
Or South Africa - any nation South Africa would go to would get much needed variety from its wheeled vehicles. But it went to UK anyway.
Ergo they are neutral.
In what way is the thai M60 playstyle substantially different to that of type 74, which is effectively anime leopard 1?
I beg your pardon?
because armored fighting vehicles development is expensive and Poland had bigger issues in the time period between end of WW2 and joing warsaw pact and getting standartised equipment.
I wont as these designs predate 1945.
Škoda T50 was only one of the two entries in the TVP program, other was ČKD, and these went through several variants.
It wasnt as much forbiden as czechoslovakia did recieve license to produce T-34/85 locally, combined with fact that they did not know the T-54 was about to enter production.
If either of those two factors was different, works would continue.
Notice I never specifically spoke about T-72s but “soviet/russian equipment” as a whole, including helicopters and aircrafts. Lot of soviet style tech (the one with most expensive upkeep) was phased out rather quickly after 91. Was the case with Czech republic, I dont believe it would be any different for Poland or Hungary (I know certainly Hungarian Strela-10Ms were phased out that way).
Dont know about hungary, but czech BUKs were notoriously known to be…unreliable, to put it mildly, but ultimately their replacement wasnt considered that important as for czech republic, there was no foreseeable conflict against adversary with fixed wing aviation.
For larping as air defense, BUKs were considered good enough.
Im fully convinced that if czech BUKs werent already some 20 years past their shelf-life, decision to procure new air defense system wouldnt be made until 2022.
so one vehicle.
so? 1979 NATO tech would be considered old based off today too, but back then it was top of the line.
you cant say “well T-72M1s were modern back then so russia should get 2020 NATO tech” and then go “well 1979 NATO tech is old today so we dont want it/dont see it as equal”
You need to apply same logic both ways.
sure, find a country with Leopard2s thats politically somewhat alligned with russia and its free game.
civil rebellions in Britain?
Like what, war of the roses?
The oldest AFVs we have in Warthunder right now are WW1 vehicles which were added as part of the WW1 event and not really part of the standard TT.
Standard TT starts with interwar tanks; ergo hard cut off for any of the aforementioend historical, political and defense ties is interwar period.
Sure, but as you said, WW2 polish tech is in different TTs - Firefly is in UK, Thunderbolt (which wasnt really part of polish airforce, just piloted by pilot with polish roots) is in US.
Polish Leopard 2 is in no way shape or form related to the WW2 so you cant really talk about “occupants”.
Theres slight difference I think.
Leopard 2PL was procured from bundeswehr stock (as in it wasnt produced by poland locally), it was modernised with help of german companies.
PT-91 Twardy on the other hand was locally produced T-72 upgraded solely by Poland. USSR has no connection to it beyond grating poland the license to produce T-72M1s locally.
its justification for most “unofficial subtrees”. Same with Argentinian vehicles in Germany etc.
While Zhalo might not sit at the same BR as Centauro, that isnt really a problem. Lot of nations dont have “Centauro equivalent” either. Germany also doesnt have any wheeled tank gun platform in the TT (beside the event Boxer MGS and R400 which wont be aviable to any new player in the future).
However Zhalo will be extremely funny for its BR and its the one vehicle im looking forward to a lot. 85mm APFSDS with reload time of up to 5sec?
One thing I wasnt able to find sources on was whenever it had autloader.
I beg your pardon?
Warhead is 3x times larger, its 2x times faster and last time I ran their flight profiles in Statshark, Maverick at absolute best has 3/4 of Kh38MT range and it becomes subsonic in the terminal phase, while Kh38MT is still going around 1M.
These two arent equivalent at all.
Kh29 would be much closer. Still more powerful and faster, but range is about the same as Mavs. At lower BRs you would trade capacity for much more potent kill potential; at top tier, capacity would bethe same.
Kh29T is FnF but TV guidance only. But I believe there is Kh29 with thermal guidance.
well funnily enough people calling them pantsir deleters were more often than not pantsir players.
Launching them at range is pure nonsense; and launching them at closer range puts you well into pantsir weapon envelope.
Mavs have the same issue, but mavs are FnF - meaning you can go full defense after launch.
As Brimstones are SAL , you have some massive constraints on what manuevers you can make since TPOD needs to have LoS at target for entiriety of the attack.
imagine it like this - you are piloting the eurofighter with one hand; in other you are holding glass of water thats 2/3 full. You cannot spill it.
because malaysian Su-30 is still the same export Su-30. Just because malaysia didnt bought Kh38MTs doesnt mean the capability to fire them was removed (same justification for mavericks on swiss hornets).
The plane didnt undergo any major redesign from its export variant to malaysian variant.
Yatagan did get its gun, a rather important part of the tank, changed.
well mods tend to get trigger happy often so…
That I can agree on, but im not that familiar with differences between T-90A and Bhisma.
Im sorry but you have to rewrite this part, its hard to follow what you mean.
Same here.
Domestic equipment of nation isnt bound by the “ongoing conflict” issue. Israeli airforce carried out series of airstrikes against two of its neighboors, it didnt stop the addition of Sufa.
We have donated mostly everything to Ukraine
This is all true
We did so too, but at that point, beside few select types of equipment, most of it was sitting in storage, no?
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yup most of it was sitting in storage
where are you from?
I come from the land down under (Poland) lol.
Look at the missile screens ive posted in the previous comment, it should be obvious.
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Was guessing that nation lol
The signs were there
Sorry but I can’t open your profile for some reason thats why
oh.
OH.
I know where the problem might be lol.
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Try now.
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Ah i see. So it would be a great equivalent for the AGM65 for sure. Problem is, game has not much planes oprating it, and thats a shame :(
i believe they were plane players tho. Still i can see how it can be your way xD
Im aware of the way GBU works
yeah
Its not relevant as all modifications were made at Russia anyway
Its bad when historically allied forces fight each other in the game. There is arcade for such.
And them USSR tanks in foreign coutries are there because alliance at the time.
fair enough
Looking back at this it’s probably a good filler since the Soviets don’t have anything with fire and forget missiles.
There is the Iran BMP-2 with the Badr ATGM. It is top attack / fire and forget with 8km range. The bmp-2 also has lazer range finder and thermal sights.
This might go over better with people here as its a BMP-2 from Iran. We all know how they lose their minds when anything Czechoslovakia or Yugoslavia is suggested…
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Yeah, however these are solid suggestions. We still don’t know the certainty of Czechoslovakian vehicles outside of fillers, but until then trialed and modifications of its own vehicles can go there without a formal sub tree.
I’d love to see this and a personal favorite BMP-2 as event vics for the Russian TT or smth.
(Not FnF for mine but shhh, BMP-2s silly)
Spoiler
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what are those optics?
nvm found it
2nd gen thermals, LRF and something called a “missile control channel”
could it be a MITM system?
