To be fair, there’s also going cold but that won’t work for most of these :P.
I am hopeful that ECM will either be in the game by the time these are available for all (as in, after the event) OR they’re tested in one singular event. Whichever way Gaijin goes, I’m fine with.
Based on recent community feedback, newly acquired info (especially surrounding the Meteor), I have made several updates to the main post:
Again, if there are any technical inaccuracies that go against what is provided, please provide the relevant technical data to help keep the table as accurate as possible.
And disable shooting down missiles, And nerf notching by better seekers/ banning chff
Hi,
Thank you for taking the time and responding. Your feedback is greatly appreciated.
I understand your concern pertaining to the possibility of people opting to shoot down incoming air-to-air missiles. However, as this will be in an Air RB-esque setting, people rarely (if ever) shoot down incoming missiles anyway. Lastly, even if we could go about that route of “disabling”, it would mean having to adjust each and every single radar in this event to essentially ignore projectiles traveling faster than Mach 2, at least, which would make certain aircraft eventually invisible on radar (such as the MiG-31 or Eurofighter).
Next, all missiles to be featured in this event could have better seekers (although in the Meteor’s case it’s less “could” and more “will”) although the actual in-game differences remain to be seen across the majority of them. Lastly, banning chaff is not on the table, at all. It is a crucial element in defending yourself in BVR/WVR engagements. To “ban” its presence here would not make any sense whatsoever.
Lastly, “notching” in the traditional sense (that is, you notch the missile and hopefully it goes away after some extra maneuvering) will not really work against most of these new missiles, in theory. The idea is that you not only have to notch the missile but also the launching aircraft, as long as they’re still illuminating you it can and will still track and/or reacquire you. Most of the aircraft presented in the list you won’t really have to worry much about that since their radar’s gimbal limit won’t allow for this, but for the very few (Su-30SM2, Su-35, Eurofighters with AESA, etc.) you and all players participating will need to adjust to notching both missile and “mothership” one after the other (or same time if they’re flying at you after launch).
afaik People who are fighting tournaments have been using/ practicing the trick quite often, or at least in practice matches. Many SU30 players have been using it in everyday ARB matches when they found they have 12 r771 and an AESA. It may be hard in SB but won’t be stopped by RB. Codewise-ly speaking, it can be avoided with the same code for ground SPAA radar filters.
This is why I’m emphasizing on seeker, notching and chaff. Currently we are having most ARHs with worse anti-notch than those good old SARHs or phoenixes, which made everyone far far away from energy fighting missiles. I’d rather see BMS level notching, aka the last thing to pray at after all other tactics.
And about chaff, sadly its advanced (and complex) ways of use haven’t been modelled in game. It’s mentioned simply for the notching effectiveness - it turns out that our radars and missiles can be notched without chaff, at a seemingly good effectiveness level.
Apologies for the delayed response. Busy week (and still). I do really appreciate your input.
As far as possible solutions go for that mechanic in particular, I can’t really say much on the matter (at least, in here) as this isn’t the place for it. What I can say is that hopefully by the time these are widely adopted, a solution will have been found by then.
At the very least, in terms of standalone seekers on the missiles themselves, apart from the AESA-equipped missiles we now know that the Meteor shares the same ‘base’ seeker design as the MICA EM, so we can expect at minimum the same seeker performance of that, but in the Meteor.
The others, while they are mostly AESA with only a few being of ‘traditional’ onboard radars, it’s at the end of the day up to Gaijin how they plan to implement AESA seekers. But, if I may interject, I believe that they would have “workarounds” to mimic the performance of missiles such as the MICA EM or eventually the Meteor. For example, such seekers could have a lower “velocity gate” (however this in itself brings many more issues, such as the radar being more prone to noise/chaff) or a tighter angle gate parameter to make notching just a tad bit harder for the target. All this means in practice is that targets would need to stay in the notch for longer until the missile eventually decides to switch to IOG.
As far as I’m aware, the ‘advanced’ chaff hasn’t yet been modelled yet, but that’s to be expected as pretty much almost everything that could be deemed as ‘advanced’ isn’t, yet. And to your final point, yes, radars being notched without chaff is sort of the idea… you can’t really do much against basic physics in that regard. This is exactly what things such as AESA seekers (on the missile itself) and two-way datalink present in all of these missiles are used for; to help compensate for the shortcomings of the missile’s own seeker when it’s being notched.
It’s definitely going to be an interesting transition period for Air Battles in War Thunder. Hopefully, we get some CM/Techncial Mod-sourced clarification soon on how they intend to model the more ‘advanced’ seeker logic for these newer additions.
New major update will come with launcher plane guiding notched missile and THAT one missile filter yay
dw it’s forum not pm :D
Bump…
Gaijin/anyone if you’re reading this:
A personal suggestion, but since the ahem greatly successful Nuclear Thunder event just ended and the map that was featured in it is now in… well, wherever maps go :P, I think it could be reused again in a possible future event, centred around these new missiles etc… The map size and terrain is even more ideal than current maps… that’s really just the gist of it from me really 😂
TL;DR: Tropical Coast can be the ‘default’ map for this event if possible. It’s already a proven “ground”, with the only alterations needing to be made would be to convert it into Enduring Confrontation, at least in the interim/for the event itself. It also presents the opportunity for select (or all) nations to also “test” ARM missiles on their respective top BR jets in addition to these new missiles.
I think you are limiting the Su30MKI and the Tejas Mk1A lol…
Su30MKI can also carry the I-Derby ER.
Su30MKI has also been seen carrying the Astra Mk3/Gandiv, Has Fired it. But is still testing them and are not officially inducted.
i honestly think these low altitudes wouldn’t influence that much, some early “meteor” test hardware (a3m) could sustain stable ramjet operation in altitudes of at least 30km (in simulator test rigs), it would probably have an influence but at 10km i think it’s unlikely
the sm-2 mr (version with only the mk-104 booster the aim-174b uses) is about 40-50kg lighter than the aim-174b and has a range of 165km, i think from a f-18 this value should probably exceed at least 250km+ but i don’t have anything to prove this properly
i think it would be a lot better even when being fired from a slower super hornet, the mim-23b hawk (i’m not 100% sure if this is the same as the fakour) has a ground range of 40-60km (idk for sure), while the sm-2 mr has a range of 165km from ships like i said before, a ground range ~4-3x higher, i think this will be the true range king despite the platform being slow
idk where these jettisonable booster claims comes from except from the jane’s article thing but i think it’s visually clear it can’t have a jettisonable booster if you look at images of the r-37m being fired or being exposed on the ground
unless it has a hidden tvc 2nd stage to still be able to maneuver in terminal phase, it can’t have a jettisonable booster since the fins that move are on the very rear end of the missile, meaning they would also get ejected. some images of some missiles with jettisonable boosters for comparasion below
ks-172
sm-2 ER block IV
in this one you can also see the fins are above the jettisonable booster, or else the missile wouldn’t be able to maneuver after it gets jettisoned
just one more thing about the r-37m, the rvv-bd has a maximum range of 200km, to have an idea this should be thought in a similar context of the r-77 and r-77-1 achieving their maximum ranges
