Begleitpanzer 57 to 10.3 like the 2s38

[AspectOfTheRAGE]

The OTOMATIC has a additional rack specifically for APFSDS ammunition, with a capacity of 9 rounds. But given its also manually fed into the 3rd drum, ,you can make the argument to allow the use of further APFSDS rounds ofc.
Problem here is again that WarThunder doesnt really allow two separate ready-racks for specific ammo-types (only internal/external belt-separation) as far as I can tell, so modelling that likely wont be possible.

And then again, also wouldnt make the vehicle better if the APFSDS ready-count was limited to 3 with a downtime for loading additional shells in the drum, even if the total capacity of APFSDS was increased along with it.

[AspectOfTheRAGE]

If you make a mistake and let someone get one or multiple shots at you, you should expect to die for said mistake. Thats simply how this game works. Any situations of such situations that you do end up surviving can be attributed to luck, enemy incompetence or gaijin-moments.
Yet this isnt something solely related to Begleit, it applies to every vehicle - and most others either leave you with even worse odds of survival or less time to react.

Would also like to hear what you think makes Begleit undertiered now that its 9.7 though.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@AspectOfTheRAGE

If you make a mistake and let someone get one or multiple shots at you

That’s the issue. A single mistake against a bagel means he gets multiple chances to shoot you and can make multiple mistakes with no repurcussions.

[AspectOfTheRAGE]

You dont seem to understand the point here;
The Begleit needs multiple shots to kill you, leaving you with a higher chance of survival.

If it was any light-tank or mbt, it’d only need one and you’d either be disabled or dead.

Begleit also doesnt allow for making any mistakes against aware players and is extremely easy to disable and kill given people stop trying to test the limit-test their darts’ autobounce angles against the UFP again.

[An_Pigeon]

@Fizzy_Elf1

ok youre smoking something if you think i-tows are decent. one, theyre normal heat warheads, the second you face against ERA theyre completely useless, which is common at 9.7 let alone higher, where everything the russians have is covered with the shit, and two, I-tows have a 50/50 chance of just failing to launch and just dirt themselves. theyre at best a third weapon system you COULD use, not something you can rely on.

Most nations dont have ERA at 9.7 bar on specifc tanks like say, a megach or strv104 /5.

The I-tow is decent it’s not great, it’s not bad at all.
Era on russian tanks? Shoot it off first or shoot the cupola with the missile problem solved.

50/5p chance it fails to launch thats the first I’ve ever heard that at all.

They’re a nice backup to the main cannon.

@Fizzy_Elf1

also the bagel doesnt have survivability either, the crew is exposed in the turret and the thing is made from paper, atleast the 2s38 has a crewless turre

Hit it with HE or any explosive round it’ll nuke the crew.
The 2S38 isn’t the only other IFV at these BRs btw.
The bradley being a higher BR than bagliets for example is criminal.

Bagliets very rarely gets one tapped in the turret bar with frag / explosive based rounds.
The 2S38 now adays really isn’t survivable, definitely not how it was at release either.

@Fizzy_Elf1

, the ap has good pen, but the lack of velocity means ANY fight at range you will lose, period. its the reason why the bagel is considered so broken, because theyre lunch meat at range and insanely dangerous at close range so people dont ever remember the fights against bagels at ranges, because they die instantly, but only remember the times when theyre wiping whole sections of the enemy team at close range.

The AP is fine for range there’s not many ranges you should ve using the tank at which its AP becomes useless. It’s not a dart and I wouldn’t make the claim it is, but it’s still a high penning round which functions past 1.4km at least, which i can say with confidence as I’ve done it with it.

Balgiets could easily sit at 10.0 and be completely fine

[An_Pigeon]

@DiabloHNTSDL

Thank you, I might add. 2S38 and people who complain about similar vehicles got OTOMATIC to have 12 APFSDS with 30 round readyrack AT 11.3.
Just because I shoot down 90% of all enemy CAS munition and can fight

I do believe the 2s38 needs a rectifying change to its ammo, either limit its APFsds or remove the AA round seeing as it’s actually a not in service AA IRL

[AspectOfTheRAGE]

M3A3 Bradley has access to TOW-2, TOW-2A and TOW-2B’s (2x ready), aswell as smokes, better thermals (gen 3 for both crew iirc) aswell as IRST.

Also when you start comparing Begleit to stuff like BMP-3, BMD-4/4M/4M2 it should become very clear why it isnt 10.0 material.

Begleit can easily be killed by HE aslong as you dont specifically aim for a plate you cannot pen or hit sectioned-off compartments.

The AP is limited by poor ballistics and angle performance, aswell as volumetric (since its not sub-calibre).

Aslong as it doesnt recieve Smokes, IRST or APDS(etc.) there is no valid reason for to be moved up again.

Also, just for the record, TOW-2 and beyond are not compatible with Begleits launcher, so they cannot be added.

[An_Pigeon]

@AspectOfTheRAGE

Also when you start comparing Begleit to stuff like BMP-3, BMD-4/4M/4M2 it should become very clear why it isnt 10.0 material.

All of said IFVs are also under BRd though.

@AspectOfTheRAGE

M3A3 Bradley has access to TOW-2, TOW-2A and TOW-2B’s (2x ready), aswell as smokes, better thermals (gen 3 for both crew iirc) aswell as IRST

Bagliets has proxy round, decent optics.
Better ap round, more mobile, survivable as well as a lower profile.

@AspectOfTheRAGE

Begleit can easily be killed by HE aslong as you dont specifically aim for a plate you cannot pen or hit sectioned-off compartments.

every light tank in game is easily killed by HE what kind of arguement is that.
Even the likes of more survivable ones like the pumas or strf etc die in one hit to HE.

@AspectOfTheRAGE

Aslong as it doesnt recieve Smokes, IRST or APDS(etc.) there is no valid reason for to be moved up again.

It doesn’t need IRST it has the proxy rounds which make it a menace Irregardless of the IRST.

@AspectOfTheRAGE

Also, just for the record, TOW-2 and beyond are not compatible with Begleits launcher, so they cannot be added.

Im well aware of that man

@AspectOfTheRAGE

The AP is limited by poor ballistics and angle performance, aswell as volumetric (since its not sub-calibre).

Volumetric breaks most AP rounds including low calibre apds…
The ap on the bagliets is actually fairly strong for what it is.

[Pangolin_Fan]

@AspectOfTheRAGE

Also when you start comparing Begleit to stuff like BMP-3, BMD-4/4M/4M2 it should become very clear why it isnt 10.0 material.

The BMP-3/4 also should be raised.

[wqsweaze]

Now 2S38 has gone to 10.7. Can someone tell me why just one APFSDS can give him a full 1.0 weight higher than Guardian 57 without an anti tank missile

[AspectOfTheRAGE]

2S38 has;

• IRST (highest range ground IRST iirc) (Begleit does not have IRST)
• Has Laser Warning System (Begleit doesnt)
• Gen 3 gunner thermals (Begleit has worst-res gen1)
• Commander-Sight with gen 3 thermals (Begleit does not have commander thermals)
• 12 Smokes (Begleit lacks any)
• ESS (Begleit lacks it)
• Elevation-Angles (+85° vs +45°)
• Ready-Rack (148rds, overheating doesnt prevent firing vs 48 rds)
• Traverse-speed (60°/s vs 55°/s, tbf not much but still better)
• Better ammunition (2S38’s worst AP round is better than Begleit’s best AP round in every single aspect; MV, Ballistics, Penetration (flat), Penetration (Angle) & Post-Pen Damage. 2S38 also gets APFSDS which is infinitly better than full-calibre APCBC)
• Harder to disable while hull-down (entire raised part of begleits turret will disable the ability to fight back; FCS, vertical-drive and you get 1 crew member aswell - the entire breech can be destroyed by any coaxial machine gun as it has an RHAE of 0mm)
• Better Power to Weight Ratio (23.3hp/t vs 21.1hp/t)
• Can swim (I know, incredible advantage /s)

Spoiler: What Begleit gets in return:

• Higher RoF; 1 round more per second [for 16s]
• Better gun-depression by -3° (not as much of a diff because turret is further back)
• Full reverse-gears
• I-TOW (barely useful and 2S38 can snipe much smaller areas with APFSDS to get the same result against heavy armour)

There are plenty of reasons why 2S38 should be far above Begleitpanzer 57 mm - just because they share the same gun-calibre and both fire faster than 1 round every 3 business days does not mean they’re equal or close to each other.

[AlvisWisla]

Out of those, the smokes, ammo, survivability are BR impacting.

Begleitpanzer having half the pen for a wider diameter round is 0.7 BR difference on that alone.
Smokes and survivability easily make up the other 0.3.

[gfdsa_killer]

Each 57mm sabot performs way better than the I-TOW, plus air tracking for its HE-VT, which I suspect are faster than begleit hevt.

Now the i-tow its a single shot and then reload, while 2s38 can spam sabots. Also obviusly sabots way better for long engagements than the atgm.

[wqsweaze]

I believe that in long-range combat, the effectiveness of an anti tank missile far exceeds that of a 57th gun

[gfdsa_killer]

Nah thats wrong, moving target at long range a sabot its way better bc it hits the target way faster with the LRF, while atgm being slow you can easily loose line of sight by even trees or other objects.

Or even the target can back up, or smoke if he sees the missile approaching.

[wqsweaze]

This can provide many first mover advantages, and the steel needle will decay when penetrated deeply over long distances

[wqsweaze]

But it can provide continuous guidance, and without using laser ranging at long distances, it will not alert the opposing laser warning

[Iluminas]

dude stop trying to reason something into existence.

[Fizzy_Elf1]

ya it really isnt. unless you attack someone who is not paying attention that atgm is gonna do nothing, besides telling everyone where youre at.

also its telling you dont play the bagel, because you should know the last patch bugged atgms, again, and now you have a 50/50 chance of the atgm just dirting itself completely negating having the damn thing in the first place.

also doesnt offset the fact the 2s38 has apfsds, which the bagel could have, maybe, possible. its up in the air

[TheDudesRug]

@Fizzy_Elf1

last patch bugged atgms, again, and now you have a 50/50 chance of the atgm

That’s a load of rubbish. Some ATGM have a drop you need to account for (i.e, BTR-82AT), but ATGM are working great otherwise. I’m not saying they work better than such and such at long range, though. AFT09 and the best missile buggies are great because they can get in close and nuke anything.