It would perform perfectly fine at 10.0. Taken as it oppresses alot of lower BR tanks, there’s no reason not to move it up.
Ah yes, let’s put the T32 from 7.3 to 8.0. Taken as it oppresses a lot of lower BR tanks, there’s no reason to not move it up.
That’s a crappy comparison. T32 would perform poorly at 8.0. Bagel would perform perfectly fine at 10.0.
According to you.
The ZBD is better than the Bagel, and they shouldn’t be at the same BR.
And until you have proven to me that they are just as good, your claim here:
Is just as good as mine:
People are still moaning about the BagelPanzer? It’s a legitimately mid vehicle.
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I never expected to see OHK machine from a 75mm gun. If we set realistic expectations less chance we’re going to get frustrated. HSTV-L looks like a perfect example of a vehicle that should play like a rat and ambush people in order to work properly. You’ll simply need some extra time to kill an enemy in those low-caliber rats vehicles. Problem here is that maps often make life difficult for them.
It isn’t easy but if you have a little bit of time to aim, no reason to not go for it.
In my opinion Centauro suffers from the “nothing special” syndrome much more than CV 90120. It has manual loading with 5s reload at best. It’s mobility is meh at best, has decent thermals, meh gun handling and meh optics. The round it fires is also nothing special and has literally no armor.
So, what’s the point in taking Centauro over something like M1s ? It has scout drone and scouting while it’s worse/same in literally everything else.
At least CV 90120 has pretty good mobility.
Fire rate is always good but as your ambush gets better the importance of fire rate reduces. Top tier tanks (when aced) take more than two seconds to turn their turrets 90 degrees + the time to spot you. I think on a decent side-on ambush you’ll have 2-3 free shots before the enemy can fire back.
True, most weakspots will be more or less the same, but in my opinion if you don’t kill/disable MBTs in a second or so you’re dead. That’s why I’d always aim for the gun if I expect frontal engagement. Against most MBTs from the front you can only do that, disable the gun and spam turret ring or LFP until it’s dead.
I’ve heard something that HSTV-L can reload in 1s, not 1.5s. Would like to know if that’s really true because that change would definitely help in those situations.
Classic Gaijin compression having Ariete/Challenger/Merkava at the same BR as 2A7V/122+/BVM.
Typical bugs for the most part.
I’ve noticed external fuel tanks on the front/side of many tanks can eat shells whole and just cause a fire that you don’t even need FPE to extinguish. Stuff like that needs to get looked into.
Forgot about ammo crates, my bad. You’ll also need time to build and fully resupply which is far worse than having 24 rounds outright.
Also, who needs darts when you can overpressure with HE-VT.
When I spawn an SPAA I want to engage CAS effectively, not ground units. This is why I don’t like to see SPAAs with quasi-TD abilities. They get pushed up in BR excessively because of that.
I also think that thing is slightly too high.
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Lets give it the 57mm APFSDS, then.
:)))
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Sure, but I do expect them to kill crew members that I am aiming at, at the very least.
That and a round through the ammo should be a guaranteed kill (at least for Russian / Chinese / British MBTs), not something out of chance.
It looks like it, but it definitely isn’t as good as people make it out to be, like I have shown previously.
Time that you may not be able to have. There often are situations where there is simply not enough time to kill them. Either they are able to show their front plate towards you in time, or they shrug your shot off and shoot you back. It’s much easier to completely disable a tank with the 2S38’s 0.5s reload than 1.5s, as in that 1.5s, a lot can happen.
One of the problems for these types of vehicles, for sure. But I think a better round is all that it really needs to stay competitve. That or a lower BR.
If you do have a bit of time, I think going for the engine and then the barrel is probably the safest way to use the limited ammo supply, although outright penning and killing them would just be prefered, like what you may be suggesting.
I wouldn’t say it’s great, but I wouldn’t say it’s terrible. Like you said, it’s nothing too special, but both have a nice 5s reload (although 5s are getting increasingly more common amongst MBTs).
Both are quite fast, although their mobility is similar to the faster MBTs (such as the Type 10s, ZTZ99As and Leclercs).
Yes, their main advantage over the M1s is that they can scout and have scout drones, but I agree that most MBTs are better than them (other than maybe the Arietes).
In a way, I think they should’ve stayed at 11.3 too.
Unfortunately, that is usually not the case. Most maps are close-quarters, and the possibility of a successful flank (with little to no armour nor damage to compensate) makes them fairly rare.
What I often find is that you can get a good flank on a couple targets, and either have the first shot non-pen on the side, or not deal enough damage to completely make them inoperable, or manage to disable them completly but couldn’t kill them fast enough before the other realises and helps their friendly out.
Like I said again, Type 90 is better suited to this sort of gameplay, and its only problem is that it cannot go hull-down nearly as well as the HSTV-L (although hull-down positions on maps are rare too).
Yes, and that is what I do too. This is where the extra firerate that the 2S38 has would be handy.
[quote=“MotorolaCRO, post:237, topic:169362”]
Against most MBTs from the front you can only do that, disable the gun and spam turret ring or LFP until it’s dead.
Agreed.
There are many reasons why certain vehicles don’t get their ‘accurate’ reloading speed, and most of it comes down to balancing, and what they think is appropriate. Things like the Leopards can reload 5s or quicker, and the Type 90s can apparently reload at a rate of 3.4s, but they don’t in-game in the name of balance. Maybe Gaijin would do that, but they may think of changing other things first, like the BR of it, or maybe the Delta 6 round.
I wouldn’t say those are bugs, but probably more like intended features. The autoloader is a module, so fragments and the round itself may get absorbed. Same with engine modules, the breech, and, of course, the fuel tanks you were talking about.
Yes, that is true. But again, at least it’s better than only 12. xD
Well, I don’t think quasi-TD abilities is necessarily a bad thing. I like to be able to defend myself in an SPAA when needed, or act like a TD if I do not have enough SP to spawn anything else in.
Good TD SPAA examples are stuff like the AMX-13 DCA 40, M19A1, ZA-35, Falcon, Gepard, ADATS, Otomatic, etc…
I am sure that if you remove their ability to deal with ground, they would go slightly lower in battle rating, but I don’t think that’s entirely worth it.
Let’s take the Otomatic as an example:
If it didn’t have its SAP / APFSDS to kill MBTs / light tanks (other than overpressuring with HE), it would probably be moved down to 11.0 or maybe 10.7. But I doubt it would go any lower, as then the ability to be an SPAA would be too great, as you’d be facing A-10s at 10.7, and simply AV-8s with bombs at 9.7. Maybe an AYIT with mavericks and walleyes / Hunter F.58 with mavericks in a 9.7 full downtier too.
I think the former feels more unique (and perhaps more useful), but that is just a preference in the end.
Not only that, but I believe CAS jets, like the Mirage2000D-R1, should be at 11.7 instead of 11.3, and Gaijin made it so that GBUs are easier to detonate, which would help out the Otomatic to be a bit more viable.
Well, I partially agree with that, but I also have to state that you must be very careful of staying inside the range of 10km with pretty much any jet (and sometimes even helicopters) that you are flying when Japan is on the enemy team. There is not much to tell you that there is a Type 81 in the area (no radar lock, etc), and once the Type 81 shoots, it’s almost always a game over unless you are outside of its range. The Type 81 does not have to guide it in like all the other top-tier SPAAs, and does not need LOS to hit you after it launches.
It being only 0.3 from the Pantsir and Ito didn’t really make all that much sense to me, but now they’re 0.7 BR higher.
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We can agree on that. Smaller caliber guns have lackluster spalling across the board, which can be problematic higher up.
Considering Gaijin is adding like 200 Leopards each update, it’s efficiency is decreasing, slowly but surely.
I was disappointed in how hard it was to kill Leopards, even from the side. I started shooting their barrel off and then going for the engine, of course if the opportunity was there. Then they can only look at you wasting 4-5 rounds in order to kill them.
How much better that new round would be ?
I’d still say getting faster reload would be more beneficial, it’s still 75mm gun at the end of the day. I don’t think that thing will ever have decent spall.
Centauro has around 19 HP/t, so unless you’re on paved road your mobility will be in line with like 9.3 - 9.7 MBTs.
Yeah, Japanese MBTs with 4s reload should be better at flanking in most cases. I’ll rather fire one Type 10 round than two and a half XM885s in most cases as well.
Yeah I’m aware of that, but if vehicle is struggling I don’t see a reason why it shouldn’t get better reload speed. This should be a perfect stop-gap measure until BR is changed or new ammo is added.
Fuel tanks and most other modules behind little to no armor (side shots for example) shouldn’t be able to send top tier rounds into the void, especially those small fuel tanks found on the sides. At least that what I’d think.
Indeed, a welcomed change for OTOMATIC.
Sometimes that added TD ability will put your vehicle in a BR where it isn’t able to defend itself from air threats, which just sucks.
And ItPsV, 8.7 SPAA that has APDS and Leopard hull with 30.5 HP/t. This thing is probably the worst nightmare of stuff with little to no armor.
OTOMATIC without darts could be as low as 10.3, considering you’ll have 9040C with radar, HE-VT, darts and good thermals at same BR. It’s HE-VT is not as strong but I think it has more than enough advantages to compensate for that.
Yeah it’s an IR slinger but those are infamously bad against helicopters. I highly doubt 11.3 helicopters won’t be able to outrange Type 81C. It struggles against helicopters, OTOMATIC struggles against jets, you simply can’t have the whole package in these two. Meanwhile that “whole package” is sitting just a 0.3 BR above them.
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Germany isn’t my main nation so I can’t say this for sure, but Germany has far more use for a normal 10.0 Bagel than they have for an 11.0+ Bagel with sabots
Yup, and that’s where the lack of ammo really becomes an issue, like you said here:
Apparently around 350mm (on the low end) and around 430mm (on the high end) of flat pen, which is a lot better.
With that round, you can more consistently get the breech / LFP of tanks, and more easily go through side armour without the possiblity of partial penetration.
I think it would be more appropriate to keep it at 11.7 or possibly even 12.0 at that point.
Yes, I don’t think much more spalling would occur with that round, but I think ammo detonation and taking out crew with near misses / direct hits.
Maybe the 1.0s reload is better, but I think the former would be better for it.
Fair enough. I am thinking more of top speed (which is 110km/h) more than its acceleration. Of course, the CV90120 with its 29hp/ton takes the cake.
The Centauro (from my experience) seems to be more survivable than the CV90120, at least.
Agreed.
Fair enough.
Agreed.
I can understand that.
Yes, that too.
Fair enough, although if we don’t give anti-tank ammo to all SPAA, I don’t think they’d be at the same BR as one another.
(Maybe the Lvkv9040C would be at 9.7 or 9.3)
Optical tracking can be used against helicopters, and from my experience, they can track helicopters from up to 5/7km or so, which is good against most helicopters other than Z-10’s AKD-10s (11.7), Rooivalk’s Mokopas (11.7), and of course the vikhirs from the Mi-28NM, Ka-52 (both 12.0), and Ka-50. The Ka-50 is at 11.3, and is the only helicopter I think the Type 81 should be worried about. Thankfully, it doesn’t get thermals or good zoom.
Fair enough, although again, the Otomatic is a better anti-tank than any of the 11.7 SPAA (other than maybe the ADATS).
The ADATS is pretty much better than the otomatic in every way (other than maybe dealing with helicopters), and it’s only a 0.3 BR higher. I personally think it might be a bit too good to be at 11.7, but I don’t think it should be the same BR as the Pantsir, despite it being much better at dealing with ground vehicles than the two.
The Pantsir is fully stabilized, and has much better missiles (and more of them) for anti-air duty, as well as better guns for engaging aircraft, and for countering AGMs / GBUs. The radar it gets is also incredibly good.
I can see the ITO and ADATS being the same BR, though.
Maybe moving the ADATS to 12.0, with the ITO, and move the Pantsir to 12.3 would be more appropriate, but I think that would require ground decompression once again, and who knows when that will happen.
I don’t think a bagel with sabot would be even close to 11.0+. If anything, 10.3 or maybe 10.7.
And the regular bagel should just be 9.7 for the time being while they decompress the BRs again so that 9.3s don’t curbstomp 8.3s anymore.
With sabots, it could easily go to 11.0 as it eliminates it’s only flaw. As it is right now, 10.0 would be a fitting BR.
It’s only flaw is that it can’t go head-on with MBTs (especially Russian MBTs). No tandem warhead means that you are stuck with trying to barrel them, or hope to flank them.
It’s also not particularly fast either (in terms of top speed, reverse speed, and acceleration), at least for an 11.0 light tank.
It may be better than the 2S38 in quite a few aspects, though, but worse in others.
That’s not bad at all. I’d like to see that + 1s reload thing happening so we can put HSTV-L at 12.0.
Considering it’s already a barely 11.7 vehicle, I’d say add both and push it up to max BR.
That top speed is just a wet dream for most wheeled vehicles on most terrains. I’d much rather have tracked one with 29 HP/t and 70km/h than 19HP/t and 110km/h top speed.
Centauro should be a bit more survivable because it has one more crew, but for the most part shooting both in the turret with detonate their ammo and that’s it.
I think 9.3 would be a better bet, considering you have M247 at 9.0 which has better HE-VT, more ammo and better fire rate. It can also somewhat engage ground units with it’s rounds, meanwhile 9040C without darts would be pretty bad at that.
You can lock them up with your IRT, but the question is will the seeker on the missile itself lock the target from 5/7km away so you can actually fire ?
In my opinion a big compression is in place for higher/top tier AAs. ADATS is much better than OTOMATIC, but Pantsir is much better than ADATS as well. We really need 12.3 or even better, 12.7 to properly BR place all those higher/top tier AAs.
Would that sabot be more powerful than that found on 2S38 ?
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I think 1.0s reload alone would be 11.7 worthy.
I think giving it Delta 6 alone would be 12.0 worthy.
But giving it both may just be too powerful imo.
Fair enough.
Yes.
Yeah, I guess we’ll just have to wait for more decompression to come around.
I think it would be quite similar. I mean, they’re both 57mms, but I think the 2S38 would have the better round / velocity (and therefore penetration) due to the gun’s design.
The Bagel has a better firerate though, which is 0.3s instead of 0.5s.
I think they’d be just as good as one another.
2S38 gets better acceleration, reverse speed, a somewhat invincible turret, and gun elevation, whereas the Bagel gets an ATGM (which is kinda useless past 10.0 to be honest), better gun depression, and slightly better armour.
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Yeah it’s hard to know without trying it out first, it’s always easy to revert back reload speed changes if it’s too OP.
That’s interesting. I’ve seen people post videos of them not being able to lock helicopters that are much closer than 5-7km, even with photo contrast mode.
Agreed.
Bagel with a dart should be a direct counterpart to 2S38.
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Maps actually affect how far away you can launch the missiles.
From what I can remember, IR lock can depend on the temperature of the map, so it’s easier to lock onto helicopters on sands of sinai than artic base etc.
And optical lock can depend on the weather (like if it’s thunderclouds etc).
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Are you sure it’s not the other way around ?
I guess engines should appear “hotter” when the outside temperature is lower.
I’ve heard it only works when they have clear sky as a background, otherwise it gets pretty funky.
So all in all, it’s still pretty inconsistent.
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At the same time, cooler temperatures mean that the engines are cooler in general.
Yeah.
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