I’m hoping if they add the C2, they’ll give it OFL 105 G2 or F2. I know how Gaijin works, and I have a strong feeling they’ll just copy the AMX-30 Super’s ammunition like how they did with the Leopard 1A5 and the 1A5BE. It’s also why I’m not particularly excited for something like the Leopard C3105 because again, they’re just going to copy over the ammunition from the Boxer MGS with the same turret.
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I find it amusing that, simply because they lack a stabilizer, the developers have decided that the AMX-30B2 and Brenus can’t use better ammunition models. The AMX-30B2 and the Super would indeed carry the correct ammunition, but the Brenus, aside from not having the correct ERA protection, being a 1998 model, should be able to use the OFL 105 G2 or even the OFL 105 F2 (which isn’t in the game) and have its BR increased to 9.3.
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I really don’t understand why people have an issue with a service vehicle, even more so when they clearly had enough changes to need a new model.
And it’s not like its replacement would be unique either under their logic, as the C2 (MEXAS) is in-game and so it would be a “C&P” of that by their logic for the base variant. And going by the logic of the C2 (MEXAS), anything with MEXAS it is a separate addition, as seen with the fact that there is a base C2 suggestion and the fake name Gaijin gave it. But then again, most add-on armour isn’t a mod but a new vehicle in-game.
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Functionally the Leopard 1a5BE doesn’t differ from the other 1a5’s in game, especially given the lack of MECAR ammo. A new model may have been created, but it doesn’t meaningfully impact any way the vehicle is played
It’s actually pretty inconsistent. We don’t have two different versions of the BMD-4M (with and without add on armor), nor two versions of the EBRC with or without slats
The same goes for things like the 2a4M (slats and mine protection) as well as many of the German tanks with Schurzen armor
This is a case of add-on amour bing it own tank, both in game and in real life. As there is no M CAN without the add-on armour, just the 2A4 CAN, which is a different tank also bought from the Dutch. As it was part of an upgrade custom assembled to Canadian specs as part of the deal done with the Dutch for our Leo 2s.
AKA there is no variant of the 2A4M CAN without the add-on armour, as it doesn’t get removed. As they don’t use the variant, heck didn’t even get money from it; the Dutch did.
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The model changed, but that’s it. Same ammunition as the 1A5, and the same weight even though it doesn’t have the Blohm & Voss add-on armor. I don’t have an issue with the 1A5BE inherently, but it can’t have been that difficult to try to make it different outside of a model and machine gun change.
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It sounds like we have a victory coming with the next update.
As a number of the ammo bug reports have been labelled fixed
👀
No APFSDS though, sadly
Kinda sad that the 1A5BE doesn’t get its domestic APFSDS. I guess Gaijin doesn’t want to change the performance of the main shell from dm33, although as far as I know, the early variants of the M1060 should be at least somewhat comparable to the DM33. But having pretty much every other shell changed to actual Belgian used ammunition is already a big improvement.
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Do you have any figures for such version?
The only data I have for it is specific to the CV HP 105mm cannon.
https://de.scribd.com/document/487624952/CMI-Defence-Cockerill-CT-CV-105HP-en
And that is uuh… quite a bit more than DM 33
You’re free to check out the related bug reports.
welp
That’d still be quite a lot more than DM 33.
We’re talking about the M1060 here. Not the A1, A2, A3, A4 or CV.
| Designation | Gun | Caliber | Type | Velocity | Weight | Penetration | Notes |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| M1060 | NATO 105 mm L7 | 105 mm | APFSDS-T | 1510 m/s | 5.8 kg | 390 mm @ 60° (values differ between 390 and 402) | Monolithic tungsten alloy core. Cartridge length 980 mm. DST-1160Z-029-94 |
| M1060A1 | NATO 105 mm L7 | 105 mm | APFSDS-T | 1510 m/s | 5.8 kg | 400 mm @ 60° / 2000 m | First major production improvement of M1060 family |
| M1060A2 | NATO 105 mm L7 | 105 mm | APFSDS-T | 1460 m/s | 6.2 kg | 440 mm @ 60° / 2000 m | Longer/heavier penetrator |
| M1060A3 | NATO 105 mm L7 | 105 mm | APFSDS-T | 1560 m/s | 6.2 kg | >500 mm @ 60° / 2000 m | Current KNDS Belgium specification |
| M1060CV | Cockerill 105HP | 105 mm | APFSDS-T | 1620 m/s | 6.2 kg | 560 mm @ 60° / 2000 m | Optimized for high-pressure 105HP gun |
Based on the public brochures for each round, Belgian senate notes and DST-1160Z-029-94, as can be seen in the Bug Reports.
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Ah I see, do we have the length/diameter for it?
Then it’d be rather easy to throw into L/O formula to get the corresponding ingame pen values (since gaijin defaults WHA to 17500kg/m³ anyway)
What was that?
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That’s the point
Not realy a 1A5BE related topic but of a Cockerill 3105
I feel sadden that we still do not get the Leopard 3105 for the BeNeLux tree, even tho it never got adopted.
I’ve been going through Belgian documentation in more detail, and there is quite a bit of useful information on the ammunition actually associated with the Belgian Leopard fleet. In particular, a 1979 Belgian Leopard SCT manual, from immediately before the Leopard 1A5BE, provides a useful contemporary baseline for the Belgian 105 mm ammunition system.
For the 105 mm gun, the manual documents the following rounds:
- L28A1 APDS-T, with a muzzle velocity of 1,478 m/s
- L52A2 APDS-T, with a muzzle velocity of 1,428 m/s
- M456A1 HEAT-T, with a muzzle velocity of 1,173 m/s
- M393A2 HEP-T, with a muzzle velocity of approximately 731.5 m/s
- M416 WP-T, with a muzzle velocity of 731 m/s
- L39A2 HC smoke, with a muzzle velocity of 259 m/s
The manual gives Belgian designations as well as the original ammunition designations. For example, the M393A2 is listed as 105 TK HEP-T WBDF, Belgian code TUEG, while the M416 is 105 TK SMK WP-T WBDF, Belgian code TUIG. The L39A2 is listed as 105 TK SMK HC WTF, Belgian code TUBG. This is therefore more than simply evidence that Belgium possessed generic 105 mm ammunition: these rounds were incorporated into the Belgian Leopard ammunition documentation.
The manual also gives some interesting details concerning the actual Leopard ammunition load. The initial onboard allocation was 25 APDS-T, 11 HEAT-T, 20 HEP-T, 2 WP-T and 2 HC smoke rounds. The HEP-T was intended for unarmoured and lightly armoured targets, personnel, field fortifications and buildings, while the manual specifically notes that it could be used against personnel because there was no dedicated anti-personnel round in the basic Leopard ammunition allocation. The WP-T was designated “FOSFOR” in fire commands and could be used both for obscuration and against targets such as buildings, fortifications and vegetation. The L39A2 smoke round was primarily intended for creating a smoke screen to interfere with enemy observation and fire.
The documentation also includes the actual firing tables. For example, the M393A2 HEP-T has a listed muzzle velocity of 731.5 m/s, while the M416 uses essentially the same ballistic data and firing table. The L39A2 has its own firing table because of its much lower velocity. This is useful because it confirms that these were operationally integrated ammunition types rather than merely theoretical inventory entries.
I’ve also found later Belgian documentation covering a considerably broader 105 mm ammunition inventory. Belgian/MECAR-produced or associated types include M393A2 HEP-T, M416 WP smoke, M1001 APFSDS-T, M1010 HE-T, M1050 APFSDS-T, M1060 APFSDS-T and M1061 HEAT-T. The DIA specifically identifies the M1050 and M1060 as ammunition for L7 guns. STANAG 4458 also records Belgian national inventory entries including DM23A1 APFSDS-T, DM33 APFSDS-T, L52A2 APDS-T, M393A2 HEP-T, M416 WP smoke, L52A2B1 APDS-T, L39A2 smoke and M724A1 TPDS-T.
This makes the ammunition situation rather more interesting than simply looking at the rounds currently available in-game. There is clear primary-source evidence for an older Belgian Leopard ammunition set, followed by later Belgian 105 mm ammunition developments. That doesn’t automatically establish that every round in the later inventory was issued to the 1A5BE, since the introduction dates and vehicle-specific issue still need to be established individually, but it provides a solid documentary basis for investigating the missing M1001, M1050 and M1060 in particular.
There are also some additional details in the manual on the vehicle’s other ammunition. The 7.62 mm belts are documented as NATO linked 4 ball S577, 1 tracer L78, with an initial allocation of 30 belts, while the smoke-pot section documents the SMOKE POT HC DM2, including its use both in the vehicle’s smoke dischargers and as a hand-thrown smoke pot. These aren’t directly relevant to the 1A5BE’s 105 mm ammunition selection, but they further demonstrate that the documentation covers the actual Belgian vehicle ammunition system rather than simply providing generic NATO ammunition information.
So, in short, the 1979 documentation gives us a contemporary Belgian baseline of L28A1/L52A2 APDS-T, M456A1 HEAT-T, M393A2 HEP-T, M416 WP-T and L39A2 HC smoke (all produced in Belgian ammunition factories, such as PRB (Poudreries Réunies de Belgique) and MCR (Mecar)), while the later documentation shows the subsequent Belgian 105 mm inventory expanding to include M1001, M1010, M1050, M1060 and M1061, alongside NATO types such as DM23A1 and DM33.
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As the M416 WP-T can be found in all sources, I have made a bug report for it. Furthermore, casings for the M416 WP-T still exsist in the (currently closed) Armoured vehicles museum in Ypres.
The bug report:
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