Australian & New Zealand Ground Forces Sub-Tree

Oh yeah also - the AC IV in-game is the pilot model, which Gaijin has assembled by copying the turret of the AC No. E1 17pdr test rig and the hull from the surviving AC 3 Thunderbolt Pilot Model (you can see this by the fact that in-game the transmission housing is inscribed with “BK AH99”, which is also on the AC 3 Thunderbolt in the Canberra War Memorial).

image

War Thunder Screenshot 2026.05.01 - 23.19.39.77

(zoomed in because the lighting of the Premium Tank garage makes it a bit hard to see)

This is worth mentioning because the production version of the AC 3 (of which there were 142 “approximately 50% completed” as of 30/9/1943; the now-defunct Melbourne Tank Museum built a reproduction in 1997 using spare AC I parts and leftover AC 3 armour castings) used a slightly thicker upper front plate on the hull - 65mm instead of 50.8mm (the designers wanted 75mm, but apparently this wasn’t possible), which would give the tank ~150mm of effective armour instead of ~115mm. The “production” AC IV was intended to use as many components “in common” with the AC 3 as possible, so it would’ve had this thicker hull as well.

Basically, the AC IV (Late) would have performance similar to the T-44MS.

Also I forgot to mention the redesigned AC IV was to have the “Wet” Ammunition Stowage racks the Sherman has. That is also described in the sources I listed above.

2 Likes

where’s our boy?! our little drop of sunshine!?
image
(I know this 37mil cannon was only proposed but c’mon, don’t you want to see this handsome young man in game?)

3 Likes

Well, if I had it my way, Bob Semple w 37mm M5 (same gun as the in-game M2A4) would be the starting tank for the ANZAC subtree- yeah, it was only a proposal, but it could’ve been! New Zealand had that gun on hand, they could’ve made it if they wanted to!

1 Like

That is neither an AC4 nor torsion bar suspension. It’s pretty much guaranteed to be an AC3 Scorpion fitted with VVS suspension, you can see the spring unit behind each and every road wheel. Built at the Newport railway workshop round about march 1943.

The AC3 fitted with axle housing 99 is the MTM assembled in 1996, 8066 the AWM tank had both AH80 (I think) and now AH88.

2 Likes

I would have not only one of the best reserve cannons, but also a crap ton of crew (up to 8).
Probably some mobility issues, tall profile, poor deppresion and that ,drive periscope? obstrucing the field of fire.

On par with the T-26, but worse handling and a lot more survivable.

1 Like

Dreams Come True event vehicle.

How do you know it’s the Scorpion? That one was just a normal Sentinel but with the Wasp engine instead of the x3 engines bolted together. I’ve never heard of any source about this photo other than seeing it and working backwards from reading about AC tanks with different suspensions.

image

Either way, there was an AC tank(?) that was tested with a “new suspension design”, and it was intended to be “independent torsion bar” (point 4).

It best matches the drawings for one of the Scorpion engine designs, so it is, most likely, a Scorpion. And before you start yes I do know the Scorpion was supposed to have imported US bogies. The only thing preventing being 100% certain is we can’t see (or at least not so far) what engine that hull was setup to use.

And that is an inwards cablegram originating from Washington talking about US tanks, not Australian. Without know what Code was looking at I would guess point 4 is in regards to something like an E4 Sherman or maybe one of the T20-23 derivatives. Nothing helpful there for understanding the Australian Cruisers.

[Various notes on AC 1 Sentinel and AC 3 Thunderbolt]

I admit the angle of the hull in the photo of the AC tank w/ new suspension looks closer to a 53 degree angle of the original hull type rather than the AC 3/4’s 67 degrees, the placement of the right-side hull periscope matches closer to the AC 1 instead of the AC 4. Nonetheless, it does seem to me that by what I have here there was physical headway made on the AC 4’s redesign. I’ll grant you this, that photo (probably) might not be of components intended for the AC 4… then again, it could also be one of the spare AC 1 hulls they kept for testing new ideas - E1, E2, and E3. Either way, I’m still leaning on the side of the AC 4’s redesign existing in the flesh to an extent.

Especially since guy in charge of the entire program, Alfred Code himself here, is saying “an experimental set of this equipment is now being made for trial” (referring to the redesigned turret with I guess he’s describing a semi-autoloader/loading assist mechanism) in 21 July 1943 - the program ended on September 30. AC IV (Late) when snail pls

Yes, I’m familiar with all of that.

But be fair, your reading comprehension can’t be this bad, “No work can be undertaken on the torsion bar suspension prior to receipt of some design details from America” in July 1943, which is at odds with what you think is a photo of a torsion bar AC4 that existed before May 1943. Earlier you posted that inward cablegram as evidence, if you read that Code is in favour of option 1, and what is item E under that option “Use of present Australian suspensions … or complete M4 suspensions”, you don’t think it odd that an existing Australian torsion bar suspension design wasn’t an option? If it existed at all that is.

The AC4 did exist physically, to a very limited extent, the test turret for the 64" turret ring version was mounted on E1, along with a Perrier-Cadillac, and they got as far as making a pattern for moulding the hull but they never cast it. The AC4 design doesn’t have torsion bar suspension and that photo isn’t it.

In regards to the EOS Slinger. There’s mentions that it was tested on an M113 chassis. If it’s true and especially if there’s photographic proof if it. It could be added as a filler in Tier V.

There’s also plans to mount the Slinger onto a Kozak MRAP but that should be reserved for the Ukrainian TT. Worth mentioning though

I did read the documents in their entirety, actually, the suspension isn’t the only thing that could suggest the redesigned AC IV made it off the drawing board. He describes the Westinghouse Stabiliser in transit to Australia and an experimental set of the new turret bustle mechanisms being created.

As for our mystery tank with the weird suspension - it doesn’t surprise me that the photo shows, as best as I can see, an AC tank with the hotchkiss bogeys removed and large wheels resembling a torsion bar suspension attached to the same vertical volute springs the AC tank’s bogeys were normally fitted to. That seems like a pretty reasonable way of testing a concept like torsion bars without having to modify the tank too much.

I’d also like to point out that the entire point of this rabbithole is to say that the AC IV was redesigned with the application of these new technologies. The AC IV didn’t have torsion bars to begin with, but then they decided to add them along with a slew of other things. The AC IV design was finished, but then it became outdated after they decided to add all these new things. Code basically says that in the first paragraph of “AC MARK IV”

All production drawings for this vehicle with the exception of some stowage items and electrical equipment for the turret traverse gear had been completed, although they will now probably be rendered obsolete by the following recent developments.

My point is that this redesigned AC IV - no it wasn’t fully assembled, but this is war thunder we don’t need it to be - did make it off the drawing board, because the specific components it was intended to have were being made, tested, shipped to Australia from the USA;

Mr. Code has directed that design work necessary to modify Mark IV tank to include the foregoing items be proceeded with; hence the design division is now working on basic layouts for a basketless turret [etc etc] … on receipt of a set of stabiliser equipment which is already on its way from America, we will proceed with the necessary design work to incorporate it.

This redesigned AC IV wasn’t an obscure project or variant or offshoot, it was the AC IV. No, they could not have worked on the torsion bar suspension, they literally said that, but they got cracking on all the other stuff while they were waiting. And yet, somehow, this photo of an AC tank with what looks a lot like a torsion bar suspension with vertical volute springs, for some reason, exists. And, for the record- I don’t know when or where it is from. Who knows, maybe they changed their minds and decided to have a go at this whole “torsion bar” thing anyway. The M4A2E4 was finished testing by the end of August (which they would’ve known about, since that tank’s trial period lines up with their visit to the states). And if not - good thing this redesigned AC IV had more to it than a simple suspension change.

Also, in my opinion, the last paragraph of the page you cited implies that a pilot model AC IV was either built, under construction, or construction was imminent. So, the tank did exist, wholly, not “to a very limited extent”.

I have expressed to Lt. Col. Parker my opinion that the design work involved in this policy is of such a major nature that the construction of a pilot model AC Mark IV built in accordance with the present designs would need to be abandoned […]

Implying that either one was built, or was under construction, or was ready for construction, and would therefore need to be abandoned to account for the redesign.

By the way, if you have sources for the stuff you’ve said about the 64" turret ring, the armour mould (it was the same as the AC III, right? That already had 142 halfway-built? Why would they need a different mould?) and the Scorpion, I’d like to read them, thanks.

Once again, I’m familiar with all of this, and it is not new. In a world of “What If” then yes anything goes, they could even have strapped a bunch of jet engines to the AC4 and made it fly, but I’m only interested in what was actually achieved not a flight of fancy.

But let’s just stick with the mystery hull for the moment, shall we?

One version of the Scorpion engine, you can see the suspension attachment points ghosted in on the far side:

The VVS suspension in question:

And the insides, no torsion bars, either from this side nor coming back from the other, and nothing to fix them into:

It’s kind of late so this will be brief. You do not build an entirely different suspension system to torsion bar to test a torsion bar suspension. The VVS hull was built at Newport railway workshop that’s in Victoria, where the Scorpion production line was going to be, probably around March-April 1943. There was a plan to built a pilot AC4 at the same time but in Sydney, that’s like a 1000km away from this thing, and as your document says in accordance with the present design, i.e. HVSS. You cannot build an AC4 out of a Thunderbolt hull, like Warthunder has, as the 'bolt still has a 54" turret ring, in order to fit a 64" or 70" ring you need a new casting, especially as the AC4 is an overall larger tank to fit everything in comfortably.

not sure if its been mentioned or suggested but why not add the M113 with a 20mm and 50cal coax as a rank 3-5 AA if you need to see what it looks like there is one parked inside the outdoor area of an RSL in South Guildford in Perth WA

Are you sure it’s a 20mm? Looks like a standard M113 with a 50cal and co-ax 30cal.

Like this model of one with T50 turret.

2 Likes

Little update, I reversed the position of the LVT and Schofield so the Schofield is finally shown as TT and not premium. And I added a Nelson Clift Portee to rank 1.

1 Like