The entire italian tree is overtiered. It should really cap out at 11.0 or 10.7 until gaijin adds the Ariete AMV PT3 with the WAR/PSO kits and upgraded engine. Or gaijin gives them the new Leo 2A8s theyre ordering with the OTO Melara cannon. But that would mean germany also needs them. There are no vehicles on the italian tree that belong above 11.0. “muhhh the arietes get DM53” yeah but they have worse pen than German DM53 and on top of that the leopards that fire DM53 are all exponentially better protected armorwise. They need to either give the PT3 Kits as a mod for AMV or downtier it to. 11.3 or lower
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That’s not true. Ariete (P) has worse mobility compared to 2A4, 24 hp/t against 27.2 hp/t. 2A4 also still has better armor and survivability compared to Ariete (not much but still better). The only advantage is DM33, though it isn’t smth gamechanging, as even DM13 is enough against most of targets 10.3 br tank can meet.
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Ariete (P) has worse mobility
I’ve tested both the Leopard 2A4 and Ariete (P) and it takes around 1-2 more seconds to reach 60km/h (Leopard 2A4). We all now top speed doesnt matter if it takes longer for a vehicle to reach said speed and with my evaluations the Ariete (P) is slightly more snappy like mentioned before.
2A4 also still has better armor and survivability
I could give the Leopard 2A4 better survivability maybe due to the blow out panels but armour is absolutely irreverent, if you honestly think 30mm of additional turret protection (gunner + commander position) will change something then you clearly are missing a processing unit.
The only advantage is DM33, though it isn’t smth gamechanging
I got vehicles with near identical penetration as the DM23 and with my experience it DOES make a change, something around around 500mm of penetration or something with 400mm? If you think DM23 and DM33 is a small change then you are deeply mistaken.
Idk how you tested it, maybe you have some different game, but I’ve just compared them in test drive on a paved road in top condition and got ≈15 s to 60 km/h for 2A4 and ≈17 s for Ariete (P), maybe you mixed up results?
Idk what you are missing, but for me it makes the difference, which can sometimes save you from lower tier shells, such as quite common 105 mm DM33. Then for Ariete you have absolutely awful lfp protection which makes you vulnerable to even 25-30 mm autocannons and here is another disadvantage - you can’t entirely remove shells from the hull because of “leo I” style ammorack. Maybe as I’ve already said it isn’t much, though it allows for more agressive gameplay in 2A4.
It makes a change, but not that much, you shoot same weak spots with both shells, penetrate same areas and do roughly the same damage.
In general Imo the difference between shells and armor/survivability is equal, that’s why br is fine for both.
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The WAR kit weighs 5.5 tons and is made to defeat APFSDS.
(AKA it is at least as effective as RHA for the same weight, of course:
All composite armor, even ones designed to defeat HEATFS, are as effective as RHA for the same weight - but in-game, stuff like external composite with NERA has a 0.10x KE modifier and is weaker than rubber so that’s not really something Gaijin cares about, reality, that is…)
- We know the density of RHA (7900 kg/m3)
- We know the dimensions of the Ariete.
- We know what the WAR kit covers (mostly the cheeks, then parts of the turret side and a small bit on the hull side)
- We know that the WAR kit weighs 5.5 tons.
It would be very easy for them to calculate the exact effectiveness of the WAR kit and implement it. It’s mostly RHA anyway. Realistically, it should be better than RHA but logical implementation would buff tanks like the Challenger 2 TES extremely and that is a no-no in War Thunder. Britain must suffer.
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or give a new BR for it like 10.7 in the same BR we can see the t-90 strong round with very good armor and ztz-99 II or ztz-99 III same as the t-90 good armor and strong round and is like 80% from games you will play with 11.7 but you can see good games too but in 11.3 it cant fight vs Leo 2a7 or t-90m it’s slow with no armor
I’ve just compared them in test drive on a paved road in top condition and got ≈15 s to 60 km/h for 2A4 and ≈17 s for Ariete (P)
The amount of seconds it takes the Leopard 2A4 & Ariete to reach 60km/h:
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Leopard 2A4 - 16 seconds (couple milliseconds faster than the Ariete P)
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Ariete (P) - 16 seconds
The amount of seconds it takes the Leopard 2A4 & Ariete to reach 30km/h (in reverse):
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Leopard 2A4 - 3 seconds (Leopard 2A4 has the clear advantage here)
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Ariete (P) - 4 seconds
The amount of time it takes the Leopard 2A4 & Ariete to do a hull 360:
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Leopard 2A4 - 9 seconds
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Ariete (P) - 9 seconds
The amount of time it takes the Leopard 2A4 & Ariete to do a turret 360:
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Leopard 2A4 - 13 seconds
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Ariete (P) - 10 seconds (Ariete beats the Leopard 2A4 comfortably)
Leopard 2A4 average score - 31.25
Ariete (P) average score - 30.5
Ariete (P) is better overall by 0.75, this is marginal and wouldn’t be noticeable at all
This was done more than 4 times in each sector to help reduce human error and make this as accurate as possible
save you from lower tier shells, such as quite common 105 mm DM33
TAM 2IP 105mm DM33 can penetrate the turret cheek of the Leopard 2A4 but just not reliably.
I and most players never only aim for the turret, it will only kill gunner & commander.
It makes a change, but not that much, you shoot same weak spots with both shells, penetrate same areas and do roughly the same damage
DM33 creates much more spalling inside a vehicle and it penetrates more than 70mm of RHA at 2000/60*.
Both have identical turret rotation speed (40°/s aced). Maybe you test Ariete (p) from the crew slot which is better than the one with 2A4 (or Ariete is from the slot, but 2A4 is from the TT, considering 28°/s, which is exactly upgraded value of both without crew skills, makes full rotation for 13 s)? Probably that’s why you also have identical acceleration, as driver skills matter too.
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Nah, I was using it with modifications removed + I don’t have crew on the vehicle. The Ariete (P) is pretty similar to the Leopard 2A4 anyways with some pros and cons like less armour and more penetration which is concerning as the Ariete PSO and other vehicles alike carry on the core of the vehicle.
+++++1
Please fix Ariete or give us Leopard2A7HU!
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I would like to understand how people talks about vehicles they never drove.
leo2a4 hun and arietep are drove by the same players (they are in the same lineup), but leo2a4hun performs better then arieteP:
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Idk what some people are smoking in here but the 2A4 feels like I’m selecting the easy mode when compared to the Ariete(P).
But to the problem at hand, the problem about the Ariete is the fact that Gaijin forces them to be on par with 2A6, T-90M and so on when they were tank designed in the 80’s and made basically a decade later if not even more.
These tanks shouldn’t be at 11.7/3 period.
Even with an armor buff they would still be subpar.
Best way to go would be to:
Ariete WAR and PSO to go down at 10.7, give them back the CL3143, remove the DM53(it ain’t even historical), remove the commander thermal sight(it’s a relay of the gunner view irl).
Ariete AMV move it at 11.0, remove DM53.
For now the italian top tier will be Centauros and that’s ok tbh.
In the future the TT will be able to implement hungarian’s 2A7HU and 2A7HU with the addon package, Leopard 2A8IT when it is ready.
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You are mistaken and shouldn’t use public information like Thunder Skill as not everything is present, I obviously do own the Ariete (P) and many other top tier vehicles and this is just a shot in the dark really…
These are all my top tier vehicles
I think I got enough tech trees to have a view on which one is the most fun, I also have friends with other tech trees like Germany, USA and Israel.
I probably got more and just forgotten them and I do own the end of the line Magachs in Israel which are very fun but no, I do own top tier Italy and everything said is from experience.
My point from the very start is that the Ariete PSO and other top tier Italian tanks are 10.3 origin vehicles which are in a dire need of a buff.
Idk what some people are smoking in here but the 2A4 feels like I’m selecting the easy mode when compared to the Ariete(P)
Both are glass cannons at their BR and above and are generally fun, both are pretty similar as well so I’d expect the Leopard 2A4 to be fun.
leo2a4 hun and arietep are drove by the same players (they are in the same lineup), but leo2a4hun performs better
Using that logic then the Ariete (P) is better than the Challenger 2 2F 😂 I average around 3 to 5 kills with my Ariete (P) at 11.7 and in my Challenger 2 2F its a whole new story, people are better with certain vehicles and one person can’t represent the entire playerbase.
I almost got a nuke in it as well with a artificial uptier 🤔
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Lmao no, the Leopard2A4 is way more survivable than the Ariete.
And I’m saying this after having played the 10.3 to death and noticed even more when I grinded the HUN 2A4. (Mind you I already had the premium 2A4)
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Lmao no, the Leopard2A4 is way more survivable than the Ariete
Firstly, this proves the dire need of a spall liner in the Ariete series of MBTs, they are practically 10.3 vehicles beefed up to 11.3. Secondly, I should mention your experience with a vehicle can drastically be different to someone others experience.
I’ve been one shot much less in my Arietes over my Challengers, Merkavas and T-90s but this may be different for others, just because you play a certain BR to death doesn’t make your point legitimate as you (a single person) can’t reflect off the entire playerbase.
I do agree however that the Leopard 2A4 has slightly more survivability over the Arietes and that’s something I’ve actually mentioned above, the key difference when it comes to survivability is simply having the handy blowout panel and that’s practically it.
I mean, turret protection is better, hull protection is better and the crew ain’t sitting on a damn firework warehouse, my experience could be vastly different from the community but, being part of one of the biggest communities that plays italian vehicles in WT, more or less everyone agrees that the 2A4 is vastly better compared to the Preserie to the point that the 2A4 is basically referred to as ez mode.
Still I find it quite stupid to have an 80’s design at 11.3 and .7, Gaijin needs to stop this bs.
Well the armour of the Arietes are currently inaccurate, the hull misses composite armour which should boost the base performance Ariete (P) and late Ariete PSO, C1 and AMV.
Hull armour should be around 420 and turret armour 480 which is significantly better than what it is in-game currently (without war package/PSO). Current protection stats are ~250 for the hull and ~390 for the turret.
Link: Community Bug Reporting System
Arietes are also missing spall liners 🌚
do a suggestion
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It’s more about bug reporting than suggesting, which is hard since most of information is quite vague, but they ask for more exact values.
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Already done here and passed:Community Bug Reporting System
But once again, there is nothing changed, maybe they need time to make change, or they just simply won’t change anything.
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