Fully alloy penetrators are not capable of shattering in the first place. Again, stuff like 105 mm L28 does.
L28 might have better slope pen than earlier APDS designs, but fully alloy APDS has even better slope performance.
Yet with the american APDS, i have seen it shatter a few times. As well as the ones on the Chieftains.
These are the lines that determine how APDS loses penetration with air gaps and multiple plates of armor. This specific example comes from 105 mm M392 APDS which is a licensed version of L28.
Fully alloy APDS like 105 mm M728, m/66, and 120 mm L15 simply do not have these lines of code.
Just aim better
They still act like full alloy. They shatter yes, but extremely rarely (EDIT: just like full alloy ones), and have good angle pen, tho (EDIT: a bit) less.
Ok so they seem to have changed how the APDS/APCR “new” shatter mechanic
works since last I checked? As previously you could very easily see how broken it was by aiming L1G or L28 at Elefants front hull plate and it showed that two laminate pieces of 100mm armour ended up providing 400mm protection? I havn’t heard anyone mention this until now.
This is how the problem worked before but now this doesn’t seem to work like this.
And testing against actual spaced armour gives some strange results? Seemingly Tungsten Alloy Core L52 (M728) works worse than L28A1???
How “shattering” works right now is that tungsten carbide cored rounds lose additional penetration when going through multiple plates of armor and airgaps.
As this mechanic affects the penetration of the round rather than the actual effectiveness of the armor, protection analysis doesn’t take it into account. So you end up seeing moments where the armor protection falls well below the penetration of the projectile, yet it does not penetrate, such as the shot you’ve shown with the Elefant.
Actually seeing “shell shattered” show up on the hit cam is highly inconsistent. But for all intents and purposes, it’s just a fancy way of the game saying that the APDS/APCR has lost too much penetration to penetrate the target due to multiple stacked plates of armor and/or air gaps.
As mentioned, fully alloy APDS rounds do not have this mechanic modeled.
They only changed the carbide penetrators (EDIT: meaning, after the initial change), or at least that’s what i noticed.
They went from completly useless to usable, and again useless, then to somewhat useful a couple times.
They are better than they were (not just the one you mentioned, but a Conqueror was completly incapable of frontally penning a Panzer III M xd.
EDIT:
This was after they made it somewhat useful. After the initial patch, it literally could not pen it unangled, and the non spaced armor parts on the turret are so far from crew, that it took multiple shots to kill the gunner. Shooting the armor convering the transmission just resulted in destroying it, but no damage to the crew.
END EDIT.
Once i actually shattered on the side os a ZSU, that has 15mm RHA+2x4mm structural steel (as a storage box).
Meanwhile “carbide” APDS, like L28A1, even at the start just went through spaced armor like hot knife through butter (Elephant, Super Pershing, even MBT/KPZ-70), even if it was angled.
And don’t even talk about APCR, it is officially useless xd.
Which is strange, since i have shattered on a Tam mantlet and side (hitting front track wheel from side on) with Chieftain APDS.
How long ago though?
This newer mechanic for APDS shattering was only implemented halfway through last year.
Yes because APCR didn’t have shattering mechanics at first.
The mantlet was right after the (initial) change, the track one was ~1-2 months ago.
There was also one with the Vickers Mk 3, shattering on the APDS ammo rack from the side of a gepard or Marksman, i don’t remember which one. This was between the 2 i already mentioned.
There have been a couple more, i just don’t remember the details.
I understand how it worked on the change, and how it was toned down the patch afterwards (but still not working as intended), what I’m not sure of is what happened between now and then specifically. Shatter just is not a fun mechanic, the fact no one seems to know how it’s working now is a sign of bad game design.
1 Like
Not just that. 17pdr can barely pen a Panther upper plate, or Jumbo at point blank. That is even if it can pen at all. From patch to patch it has been changing. One patch you can somewhat pen it, other patch, you can’t. Currently, you can, but we will see what happens next patch.
Same is true for the 83mm APDS, and the Conq, VS Tiger 2 upper plate.
1 Like
Penned Tiger 2 UFP almost 2km away the other day, usually goes through and destroys the engine, very rare if real example at all. Take it from person who has 1.5k+ kills in Conq and naturally earned ace crew.
100mm at 60o is enough for APDS to pen UFP of tiger 2 whereas 100mm at 60o pen AP cannot, because APDS has much better 40-50o modifiers that you cannot see, because of this, the Conq can pen the upper hull of the tiger 2 over 2km away.
Shattering rarely if ever occurs on homogenous armor, it only impacts spacing or for some reason 2 plates sandwiched together (this is the real ahistorical issue, 1mm of air shouldnt cause a round to lose all its pen)
Also if APDS keeps shattering when it pens then why isnt that represented in the damage model, that sounds like extra damage to crew if you ask me, and its a very hard and sharp material going at supersonic speed.
I will still chose APDS over AP in most situations as solid shot has no real advantages over (gAy)PHE whereas APDS has distinct advantages in its historic bracket such as very good ricochet angles and velocity.
Regarding shattering of the gen 3 APDS it shouldnt be happening at all and Gaijin said that themselves. I dont play those vehicles much because they are overtiered, but I havent witnessed it personally.
Besides I have sekrit document of Chieftain APDS testing this specific shattery scenario and it showed the round capable of penetrating several spaced plates at a 65o angle.
EDIT:
Document shows that the round can penetrate at least 105mm of very air spaced armor at 60o at 1000 yards, so this round should not be shattering by any metric at all, unless Gaijin intend to make it so that other rounds like AP can shatter under circumstances more stressful than that (examples of AP shattering such as the Maus experimental round and american US M62 shot in ww2)
Also HESH able to penetrate 600mm of reinforced concrete but unable to blast through 15mm of RHA with the HE content…
4 Likes
Congrats! Especially for the aced crew.
As i said, they have changed it a few times. Sometimes it shattered on angled plates, and other times it did not. Now it is rarely going to shatter on single plates.
It depends for me. For 17pdr, i all day take the AP, and only use APDS when needed. AP is just more consistent, and deals more damage, while still can pen everything (mostly).
The only tank i sued APDS often was the Comet, where the AP just felt like i was shooting blanks.
And then, if there is APHE, then i take it no questions asked.
I recently spaded the Pvkv IV, and it has a ~80mm pen APHE and a ~160mm pen APDS.
I used the APDS like 5 times, against angled KV-1 tanks. It was just pain to deal with them, because the shell is just awful.
YOu can also see my stats in the Comet/Avenger/Challenger combo. They are all crap (except the Challenger, because it was at least a usable tank compared to the other 2 dogshit) compared to my other tank K/D at similar BR.
A huge part in it was the solidshot/APDS combo (as well as no armor or reverse gear and generally long reload).
It’s rare, but it still happens. While i did not see myself, but in a video somewhat recently i have seen even some longrod APFSDS shatter (DM63 i think, but i can be wrong on that).
It can do it in game too. While that APDS lacks flat pen, the angle pen is not bad. Just like the damage.
On the Mk10, sometimes i felt, that the APDS was just plain better than the dart, but i think it is just some personal confirmation bias on my side.
HESH is very weird. Especially on the very high calibre rounds (On the shitbarn and AVRE), yet works well on the 105mm. I just love 1hitting IS-3/4, Conqueror, M103, T29/30/34 by shooting their turret roofs.
I’m pretty sure that document pertains to the 120 mm L15 APDS, which is fully alloy and does not lose additional penetration against multiple plates of armor or air gaps.
All of these shots require to be extremely close range to the Tiger II, about 15 meters, otherwise, you won’t obtain the angle shown here.
That’s literally what this user implied in the last part before the edit
Those are especially powerful AP rounds, but as the other man said, you arent actually shooting it at the correct angle there, it should be exact to the impact angle as it would be at any real distance.
The T-10M definitely cant penetrate the UFP of the Tiger 2, The Maus also probably cant, the 278 and IS-7 might be able to however. Those extra 5 degrees make an enormous difference to AP, whereas with APDS not so much, thats one definite advantage that APDS has, and why the 84mm 20pdr APDS can penetrate the UFP even though an AP round with higher 60o pen cannot.
Low caliber low tier APDS shouldnt be especially powerful, but the high penetration actually gives you a chance of penetrating a KV-1 at all, Russian tanks at that BR have that huge breach weakspot that the APDS should be able to take out with ease. The APDS in that vehicle also has identical penetration to the mysteriously missing 57mm 6pdr APDS that should be in the game.
I have also noticed that 105mm HESH has a more consistent damage profile sometimes than HESH that is much more powerful than it… I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that it is a multi national round and so Gaijin will actually prioritize making it usable when it doesnt involve Britain.
The Avenger is a perfectly competent tank destroyer for 4.7. The Comet should be dropped back to 5.0 as I have always found it to be a non-competitive vehicle, and now especially when its APDS is effectively just APCR now.
And the AP on the comet is awful yes, its APDS was decent enough a while back which made it a trolly hull down sniper, nowadays it cannot do that and its not a vehicle I ever felt comfortable flanking with either.