this may be controversial but hear me out, APC (like btr) and IFV (like bmp) shoud have the transported crew in their damage model/spare crew to change when they get knocked out, hell they coud even have their “personal weaponry” as automatic weapons sticking out. And dont say that “they dont know how to operate the thing” becuse in tanks like 2C where alot of things inside where very specialised, for example there was a electric (for electric engine maintance mid usage), mechanic (for engine maintance mid usage), electric assistant, mechanic assistant ecc. and they can operate the main gun or drive the thing, so the transported troops shoud too. that whoudnt be a huge change of ballance but whoud be something very nice to see
1 Like
No… Transported troops are NOT vehicle crewmembers and cannot operate vehicles in the same way. Also, the crew compartments are usually seperate from the transported crew compartment, so it doesn’t really make sense either.
You mean a mechanic could operate the mechanical systems in an almost purely mechanical vehicle? That is nowhere close to being similar to using a sophisticated modern vehicle that usually requires specialized training to properly operate because of the complexity.
Also, citation needed about those members firing or driving a 2C. Pretty sure that if the driver/gunner were killed or taken out of action then the tank’s armor was probably penetrated and the vehicle would be abandoned.
I’m laughing my ass off right now. In which army is it supposed to be the case that all crew members have several highly specialized trainings?
Let me put it this way, in most armies in the world you could and can count yourself lucky if the majority of soldiers know how to tie their boots and where the dangerous end of the weapon is… and you want to tell us that they are all trained craftsmen? Dream on.
That isn’t always the case. US Eleven Mikes are trained to drive and gun the Brad, even if their first job is as a dismount.
I like the idea. It would make IFVs much more survivable if they had their “meat armor”. It would give Gaijin some more flexibility in balancing vehicles and BRs.
Sad, but true…
OTOH Most AFVs are designed to be operated by soldiers who barely know how to tie their boots and where the dangerous end of the weapon is…
Exceptions are not the norm. Also, the whole different conpartments for dismounts and crew defeats the idea of the switching positions pretty well too.
That is false. There might be turret basket screens, but almost all APCs and IFVs have a “hellhole” that connects to the driver and turret, often occupied by someone like the commanders seat in BMP-1s.
No, they are designed to be operated by trained Soldiers that are proficient in their primary role. The existence of the horrible Solders just shows work ethic and lack of discipline.
Ah no. Again. Equipment is designed for the lowest common denominator of IQ. Even in the US and other all volunteer forces, that bar is set pretty low.
Ok, think what you’d like. I’ve been working with sophisticated miltary equipment for over a decade, and I know from my experience that it’s Soldiers with bad proficiency in their job and not dumbed down equipment. Manuals explain the operation pretty well, and the lack of that knowledge is on the soldier not following the direction of those manuals.
Is the fighting compartment accessable from the dismount compartment? Driver and turret is cool and all, but the issue here lies with dismount compartment and fighting compartments.
Yes.
I sincerely hope that you don’t mean McNamara’s Morons.
A little anecdote on the subject of suitability for conscripts…
In the summer of 1990, I was able to visit my defense colleagues in the Bundeswehr with a few colleagues from my old troop in the riot police, specifically a tank battalion in southern Germany.
I’d already had all kinds of driving licenses for many years at that time and drove, both on duty and in my private life, solo and side-by-side motorcycles, cars and trucks, mostly on the road and rarely on light terrain.
The guys proudly showed us their Leo 2 A4 and then we were all allowed to drive a few kilometers on the barracks grounds (road). As the only one with truck experience, I was allowed to go first, hurray. As we entered the first bend, I drove with my head out of the hatch, the commander shouted “accelerate, accelerate, accelerate!” I just thought, what does he want, I’m not crawling with the pile of iron and the engine stalled.
I thought I knew how a steering gear with differential worked… but he had completely forgotten to mention during the briefing that you go into the bend at full throttle.
And I realized why every military driver learns to drive tanks on the road for a few weeks before being allowed to go off-road. And I remembered my grandpa talking about the weeks he spent learning to drive a half-track vehicle.
I imagine that I could still drive a Leo 2 or something similar today after a few minutes of orientation, but driving it into action? Certainly not. You have to learn that.
The fact that you could even drive the tank with no training proves my point.
And no I did not mean McNamara’s Morons, but the US military does design its technical documentation and training for its minimum IQ of 83 which I believe is an 8th grade level. Yes, technical fields require higher levels of intelligence and education but the base-line of a basic bullet-stopper? It an’t much.
Not at all, that’s what I explained.
Being able and allowed to move other vehicles can be helpful to learn how to drive a tank, but it is absolutely not the same.
Driving a tank or whatever on the road, off-road, under operational conditions, these are all three completely different qualities. Of course there are always and everywhere exceptional talents who learn and master something like this extremely quickly, but not the masses. They make the same mistake as me and stall the engine, only perhaps in the wrong eyeblink and take a hit.
To expect that such a thing has been built by the engineers to be easy to use and that everyone can therefore master it quickly and use it sensibly and successfully is simply crazy.
Anyone who believes this forgets the following:
- in conscript armies, countless conscripts have always died in peacetime as a result of accidents while operating heavy equipment because they did not learn and practice enough or disregarded regulations
– which also happens in troops with professional, well-trained soldiers, just not quite as often
And those who operate a gun they don’t really know because the gunner is out of action may become heroes because they saved their comrades from the enemy, but most of them have long since been forgotten and turned to dust, perhaps only because they didn’t know how to remove an obstruction. And no one could tell about it anymore.
That is incorrect. The only difference is practice and experience.
Do you think you could just hop into a helicopter and do the same? Of course not. Because flying a helicopter is much harder and complicated. That is why they don’t let raw recruits at them.
What is crazy is to expect them not to. Your “logic” makes no sense.
Weapons and equipment are designed to be as simple as possible to operate and service so that the largest number of people can use them. Not only just the “dumb” ones, but also when they are dead tired, in the middle of the night, when they are scared and under combat stress.
Your premise is completely wrong.
OK, you prove me wrong. What do more than four decades of experience with police and military weapons, vehicles and other equipment count for?
You want it that way, then that’s the way it is.
I already have. Read post again. Maybe use a better translation program.
Nothing. That means nothing. “four decades of experience” doing what? Going to airshows and looking at stuff? Four decades of being a Wiki-expert?
Are you a simple minded troll?
I shot for decades in the service with German, French and American weapons, and still do so privately with many more today. My duties included escorting allied tanks (USA, UK, France) through the city, where you learn a lot about their shortcomings, both technical and driver errors. You sometimes have conversations with your comrades, not only during the joint exercises in CQB in fighting city ruhleben.
But what am I telling you, back then your parents probably still danced around the Christmas tree with a rattle, as we say here in Germany.