AMX PRA (AMX Mk.61) - A Post-War French Self-Propelled Artillery of the Royal Netherlands Army

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‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ 105mm, Houwitzer, AMX Pantser Rups Artillerie L30‎ ‎ ‎ ‎ ‎

Hello everyone! Today I would like to suggest the Dutch AMX PRA! more commonly known as the AMX Mk.61 Howitzer.

The vehicle was an export variant of the French OB 105 Mle 50 AU, itself being a Self-Propelled howitzer derrived from the AMX-13 chassis. The vehicle carries a 105mm M1950 howitzer with an elongated 30-caliber barrel unlike its French counterpart. The rigid superstructure is mounted at the rear of the vehicle. The Mk.61 is unique in the sense that it uses a new distinct circular commander’s cupola, replacing the original hatch design. The Dutch variant uses a roof-mounted FN MAG machine gun as well as the vehicle using Dutch radios. In dutch service the vehicle would be designated as the 105mm, Houwitzer, AMX Pantser Rups Artillerie L30, with it being shortened as the AMX PRA.

The placement of the vehicle in-game depends on whether it gets the full-loadout of HEAT instead of the basic 6x rounds, if it does get all HEAT then it could easily sit at Rank IV with a BR of ~ 6.3 - 6.7 similar to the JPz 4-5. If it can only can only carry the supposedly standard 6x rounds then it would be at a lower BR instead.



A. Background & History

Details

The first major derivative production which uses the AMX-13 chassis was a light 105mm Self-propelled howitzer officially known as the “Obusier de 105 Mle 1950 sur affût automoteur”. Otherwise known as the “OB 105 Mle 50 AU”. The vehicle was designed to meet the requirements of the French Army in the late 40s. The vehicle itself was built in prototype form in 1948 on an early experimental AMX-13 Chassis. The gun was mounted in an armored casemate on the rear of the vehicle, and it can elevate up to ~70 degrees up ~4 degrees down. The gun is not fully-traversable, but it can rotate left and right up to 37 degrees.

First prototype of the Obusier de 105 Mle 1950 sur affût automoteur (OB 105 Mle 50 AU)

Series production of the vehicle was delayed and unit test began in the summer of 1954, with the 8e Régiment d’Artillerie. The vehicle would use the Type 2C AMX-13 chassis, with around 329 units being produced from july 1954. A turreted version of the vehicle was also developed from 1952 by the Atelier de Bourges with unrealized hopes of a French order, this version would mount a longer 30-caliber barrel (compared to the original 23-caliber) capable of firing a wider variety of 105mm rounds with a slightly longer range. Only Switzerland obtained 4 units and at least 1 prototype being tested by the French Artillery. Nevertheless, the original vehicle would serve the French Artillery service and only being replaced from 1968 onwards by the 155mm gun on the Canon 155 Automouvante F3, and eventually the Au F1. The original vehicle was also exported to Israel, Morocco & to West Germany.

French Army OB 105 Mle 50 AU in the Mailly-le-Camp training ground in 1959.

In the early 60s, both Indonesia and Netherlands purchased the OB 105 Mle 50 AU with the improved 30-caliber variant, with the two nations ordering 4 & 82 units respectively. The vehicle would receive the English designation of the “AMX-105 Mk.61”, or simply the AMX Mk.61. It’s specifications is quite similar to the original model, but with some differences. The superstructure located at the rear of the vehicle with the troops entering through the doors at the rear. The commander is situated at the right front-side of the superstructure, right beside the gun. Unlike in the original, the Dutch & Indonesian model’s commander hatch is of a single piece domed hatch with periscopes surrounding it for observation. The Mk.61 has no amphibious capability nor NBC protection.

The main armament consists of a 105mm M1950 Howitzer with a 30-caliber barrel with a double baffle muzzle brake and no fume extractor. It can fire a 105mm High-Explosive projectile weighing 16kg, with a muzzle velocity of 670 m/s to a max range of 15km. It can also fire the 105mm HEAT projectile with a muzzle velocity of 700 m/s, capable of penetring 350mm of armor at 0 degrees or 105mm of armor at 65 degrees. Additionally it can fire other standard 105mm US howitzer rounds. It can carry a total of 56x rounds of separate-loaded ammo, 6 of which are usually reserved for the HEAT rounds. The fire-control equipment consists of an L841.7 goniometer with a magnification of 4x zoom and an L881 Telescope for Anti-tank use with a magnification of 6x zoom. The Dutch vehicle is armed with a roof-mounted 7.62mm FN MAG machine gun as well as using Dutch Radios.

Dutch AMX Mk.61 with the circular cupola & longer caliber barrel

In march 1961, the Royal Netherlands Army placed the largest European order for 727 AMX-13 series vehicles to replace the older M24 Light tanks and American halftracks. This order would rise up to 846 vehicles later on. These included a~82 Self-propelled guns based on a modernized version of the OB 105 Mle 50 AU among other AMX-13s light tanks and APCs. The Self-propelled howitzer was adopted into service in 1963-64 and was designated as the 105mm, Houwitzer, AMX Pantser Rups Artillerie L30, shortened as the AMX PRA. The Netherlands first trialed the Howitzer in the late 1960s at the Le Courtine camp alongside other AMX-13 based vehicles, as the place was already leased from the French to train Centurion tank crews.

In late 1963, DEFA engineers under Joseph Molinié evaluated and corrected 24 problems identified by the Netherlands army before the units equipped with the AMX-13 series evhicles could be considered fit for active service. These issues range from minor issues to major ones, like defective fittings, armour plates and castings in some of the FL-12 turret. These issues resulted in a number of improvements for the vehicles. By may of 1965, the issues had been resolved with it having a decent service life, although this quality defect may have contributed to the Netherlands reluctant in purchasing the offered French AMX-30.

The AMX PRA served in regiments of the Dutch Army’s Field & Horse artillery for 20 years. The vehicle was first put into service in 1963 with the 12th, 41st, and 43rd Afdeling Veldartillerie. A fourth (horse) artillery regiment, the 11e Afdeling Rijdende Artillerie was equipped with the vehicle in 1969. Finally the 42ᵉ, 13ᵉ (Reserve), & 51ᵉ (Reserve) Afdeling Veldartillerie regiments all received the vehicle in 1970. The regiments followed a 3 battery structure, with 6 guns per battery and 18 guns per regiment. After 1982, the AMX PRA was replaced by the more modern 155mm M109 Self-propelled gun. Some of the vehicle has been preserved in museums, whereas a large chunk of ~80 vehicles were sold as surplus to Indonesia.

AMX PRA as a display piece at the Nederlands Artillerie Museum in 't Harde



B. Specifications

Details

General Specifications

  • Crew: 5
  • Length: 6.4 m
  • Width: 2.65 m
  • Height: 2.7 m
  • Empty Weight (Combat): 13.7 t (16.5 t)
  • Armor
    • Hull
      • Front: 15 mm @ 40°
      • Side: 20 mm
      • Top: 10 mm
      • Rear: 15 mm
    • Floor
      • Front: 20 mm
      • Rear: 10 mm
    • Superstructure/Casemate
      • Front & Side: 20 mm
      • Rear: 15 mm
      • Top: 10 mm
  • Transmission: Manual Transmission
    Gears: 5 forwards, 1 reverse
  • Engine: SOFAM 8Gxb 8-Cylinder Water-cooled petrol engine
    • Horsepower: 250 hp @ 3200 rpm
    • Power-to-weight Ratio: 15.15 hp/t
    • Max Road Speed: 60 km/h

Armament

  • 1x 105mm M1950 30-caliber Howitzer
    • 50x HE rounds
    • 6x HEAT rounds
  • 1x 7.62mm FN MAG Roof-mounted Machine gun
    • 2000x rounds

Systems

  • Manual gun traverse
  • 20° traversal limit both left & right
  • -4°/+70° elevation
  • 30% side slope
  • Torsion bar suspension
Crew Compartment



C. More Images

Details

VIDEOS

https://youtu.be/9TFRAPCArBU?si=QTxT5vPZM9McbrzF&t=46

IMAGES


AMX PRA during a firing exercise


AMX PRA with its crew


The vehicle as displayed at the Nationaal Militair Museum in Soesterberg.


Another image of the vehicle as a part of the Nationaal Militair Museum collection.



D. Sources

Details


Thank you for reading! Any suggestions or corrections would be highly appreciated!

7 Likes

would likley end up in the sub tree and France would already have it so maybe a speical skin? But it might be able to be in a few trees which is good.

+1 for more Dutch vehicles in game.

2 Likes

Dutch (and Indonesian version) uses the longer 30-caliber version, IIRC there’s not a whole lotta mention of France using the longer-caliber variant. Since its technically a different variant both long barrel and short barrel can be added

its similar to the standard M109 vs long-barrel M109A1 situation

3 Likes

That’s awesome news then

1 Like

+1
Folder it with the domestic French variant with the shorter barrel ig

2 Likes

A +1 from me! Another thing that we should’ve had already… we need all the AMX-13oids

1 Like

Any information on the HEAT round’s penetration? The 105mm HE round would be too small for most vehicles in War Thunder so I wouldn’t limit how many HEAT rounds you can carry.

no it wouldn’t lol, literally play the Ho-Ni II at 2.0

???

1 Like

it’d be nice to have this, and the rest of the SPGs france actually built instead of the M44 & M55…

3 Likes

Sorry, I didn’t see you posted details about the rounds in the Background & History tab, I was searching only in the Specifications tab and missed all your information especially about the ~350mm HEAT round. I also tried to find some information on the gun and it’s ammunition on myself, but all I could find is sources like on Wikipedia where it states it uses the" Shell Semi-fixed 105x372 mm R" round which is basically the M1 round on the M4A3 105mm gun. This round I had in mind which felt a bit lackluster around 3.0 (especially when you meet vehicles like Pz.IIIs, T-34s and KVs that are very hard to pop up with a 105 mm M1 HE shell).
I also found references to a 16kg HE round in here: AMX Mk 61 105mm (FR) but no additional data are provided so I am not sure which is true. M1 round could make sense for a Post WW2, Cold War era vehicle when there would be stockpiles of it around for NATO use.

As for this remark, since most vehicles in War Thunder don’t have limits on how many rounds they can cary for specific types, I would also leave the AMX PRA (Mk.61) unrestricted to how many HEAT rounds it could carry and give it ~5.7-6.3 BR (since it is turretless and this could hinder it’s effectiveness in battle).

the gun is the same as the CN 105-57, in game this is used on the DF105 (and to an extent the AMX-30). which basically means it fires the OCC 105 F1 ammo (same as the two aforementioned vehicles)


I would too but there is a precedent in game, the AUTOMATIC can a limited amount of Dart rounds due to a limitation to the vehicle, this is modeled in game, so I’d say this vehicle would most likely receive the same treatment

Same as I responded on https://forum.warthunder.com/t/meriam-gs-105mm-howitzer-amx-mk-61-the-self-propelled-backbone-of-the-indonesian-artillery-battalion/328595/14:

“It’s weird that the sources I find mentions the Obusier de 105 modèle 1950 as the main gun, different from CN-105-57 in purpose and in rounds they get access to fire. I also have detailed what I found in my post above and the sources I’ve checked confirm the ~350mm HEAT round instead of the 400mm OCC 105 F1. OE 105 F1 Mle.60 is also lighter, only 12.1 kg compared to 15 and 16kg the other sources have mentioned for the OB 105 Mle 50 ( Obusier de 105 modèle 1950) gun.”

Is there an actual physical limitation preventing the HEAT rounds being fitted into the same storage spaces?

it’s the same shell

they’re just using a very understated 100 % chance pen value (which is at 385 mm) instead of the 97% chance value (400mm)

Yes, HEAT shells have a bit of RNG IRL, just like everything tbh, thats’ why there so much debate on penetration test results for WW2 perf of guns

1 Like