Adaptive Multipath Radar Behavior for FOX-1 and FOX-3 Missiles Based on Generation and Technology Level

Machinery of War Discussion Aircraft
13

This is wrong, because widening BR allows more vehicles to be viable/competitive and therefore allows a wider range of vehicles that are enjoyable. Even if what you say was 100% true and what I just said was 100% false, it still wouldn’t be enough “diversity” removed to matter versus the net gain of massively improved balance/fairness.

Nah, they would just be overpowered and push compression lower again. You would see F-4S at 11.7 because of this. That would cause F-4E to go back to 11.0. Etc.

This is not the case. You are exaggerating MASSIVELY the small, almost barely there detriments of BR decompression.

14

In my opinion, the ground battles system needs a deeper revision, particularly by increasing the maximum BR to 13.0. Keeping it capped at 12.0 is becoming unreasonable, especially when aircraft in those matches can reach up to 14.0. The issue is that, whether a jet is BR 12.7 or 13.0, in ground battles they’re both treated as 12.0, which leads to serious balance issues in the air component.

From a historical and technological perspective, tanks in the game are now more advanced than many of the aircraft supporting them. There really aren’t that many modern tanks left to add, aside from some speculative or prototype models. That’s why it would make sense to raise the BR ceiling and adjust the environment around ground combat as well.

I also believe the ground maps need to be larger, since current SPAAGs and SAM systems cover too much of the field, making gameplay too static. I’d also rework artillery mechanics to allow for more effective and tactical indirect fire, perhaps with more interactive or guided control options.

I understand these are broad changes, and I know some of them are already being discussed or developed, but I do believe this area should be given more priority to improve the long-term experience of ground battles.

2 Likes
15

Just so you know, I was also one of the players who pushed for BR decompression, especially back when there was only a 0.3 BR gap between jets with FOX-1 missiles and others carrying FOX-3s that were completely dominating every match. It was after that imbalance that Gaijin applied some decompression, which made the game more playable again for less advanced aircraft.

That’s why, honestly, I feel like you’re exaggerating. It’s nowhere near as bad as it used to be, and I’m fairly certain BR will increase to 14.3 in the coming months, especially once the AIM-120C-5 starts making people rage, which it undoubtedly will. That always happens when NATO aircraft catch up or surpass their Russian counterparts.

Tell me do you really think it’s fair for an aircraft with 4 or 6 FOX-3s to fight one carrying 12? Clearly not. But based on experience, it’s far more likely Gaijin will implement a new mechanic (like adaptive multipath behavior) than decompress again, because a large part of the player base is strongly against further BR spread. And that’s a fact.

Also, you’re missing something fundamental: the goal of the game is to push players forward not keep them stuck at low BRs. Sure, I’d love to always stay in a favorable BR with an advantage, but that wouldn’t be progressive, and over time it would kill interest due to lack of challenge.

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Like I said, IR only 13.0s against 14.0s with AIM-120C-5 next patch?

Ok, doesn’t change the fact 13.0 will still face 14.0 or that 12.0 will still face 13.0 or that 11.0 will still face 12.0 etc. All of these are hopless situations if the downtiered guy isn’t terrible.

It happens worse when USA isn’t the #1 top meta. USA players hate not being the #1.

Why do you think this

Only if you mean the goal of gaijin’s purpose for making it, and how they use manipulation to get users to spend money. Not because the game is actually any more fun the higher you go.

17

+1 for far in the future, BUT, only if the values given to those vehicles are reasonably estimated or historically accurate. Furthermore, this would make radar guided missiles a LOT stronger than they are now, and would require BR increases for certain aircraft that would highly benefit from such a change.

1 Like
18

Have you considered that some infrared missiles (IR) are, in certain situations, more effective than FOX-3s? Personally, I’ve taken down multiple US F-14s using the German MiG-29, and even then, I still believe some of those aircraft should be placed at BR 12.7. But to fully apply your idea, you’d need to restructure almost every tech tree and BR in the game, not just by whether aircraft have FOX-3s or not, but also by whether they have all-aspect IR missiles, pulse-doppler radar, or other tech features. And honestly, at this point, that’s not going to happen.

I say this based on experience. I ran two polls in the past one over a year ago and in both, the majority of players did not support full BR decompression that would equalize aircraft by generation or armament. The second poll happened after FOX-3s were introduced and the BR ceiling was raised, and again, most players preferred the current system or even opposed further BR spread.

And it makes sense. Gaijin’s goal is not to make things comfortable they want players to progress, and ideally, spend money to make that grind faster. My proposal works within the current structure of the game. It doesn’t ask to overhaul everything. It just allows some FOX-1 missiles to regain tactical value against early FOX-3 platforms, instead of being completely useless.

Aircraft at 13.0 will continue facing stronger opponents, as they always have. The thing is, most players want to enjoy their favorite jet while having the upper hand. I get it I’d like that too. But no one enjoys being on the defensive, having to fly low or hide just to survive when a superior plane comes to hunt them down. Just imagine how bomber players feel when fighters come straight for them it’s frustrating, but it’s also deeply satisfying when you survive or even shoot them down, and the game rewards that with more SL and RP.

I’ve taken down Harriers in an F-15 or F-16 it doesn’t feel like an accomplishment. But when I’ve downed a Su-27 or Su-30SM with a lower-tier jet, that does feel like a victory. And trust me, I’m not some top-tier ace.

One of the few tools that can help level that gap are IR missiles, some of which are quite powerful. But I think FOX-1 missiles should also play that role, and currently they don’t because they’re inferior in every way. With a mechanic like the one I’m proposing, some FOX-1s could finally be viable again.

Also, for the record, I don’t usually play the US I prefer Germany and Sweden. And I’ve seen a lot of bias in discussions about BR decompression. Often what people are asking for isn’t true decompression it’s just a rebalancing of existing aircraft or better BR placement.

In my opinion, 12.7 should be the cap for top-tier jets that don’t have FOX-3s. But also keep in mind that air combat isn’t just about dogfights. There’s also base bombing and AI objectives, and that affects how players progress. For example, I personally grinded the F-15 Baz without FOX-3s all the way until the final update when they were finally added. In fact, I made a suggestion back then that all top-tier jets should have at least two FOX-1 or FOX-3 missiles, and just a few months later, that became standard.

Not all jets serve the same function, and most players aren’t trying to stay locked in one BR. They want to progress and unlock new things. That’s why, before calling for a full restructuring of the game, I think we should look for practical solutions and I believe my proposal is exactly that.

19

The calculation is an approximation so as not to make it 100% real or otherwise it would be unplayable on the maps, since there are planes that have Multipath up to 5 meters and it would be unviable, but it would be something that would diversify, and of course some would benefit and others would be harmed, for example it would encourage you to have variety, since you can estimate that one guided by radar, would serve you better at short distance or against a target that is flying low than a fox-3.

20

Yes, in very specific close up situations. Most Fox3 can be used as impromptu fox1s anyway by just firing them in HMD.

Any 13.0 moved to 12.7 would hideously compress 11.7-12.7 to the point that you’d have to move everything from 12.7-10.0 down a br to compensate.

Gaijin not doing something doesn’t mean I can’t advocate for what needs to be done to fix the game.

Can you show this poll

yay! Can’t wait to face F-15J in a MiG-23~!!!

21

The situations you’re describing aren’t as specific as they seem. If you played top tier regularly, you’d know these things happen all the time. Most players run out of FOX-3s halfway through the match because they launch them like fireworks. And honestly, you don’t need to pull off crazy moves to survive these planes are perfectly beatable. The reason they’re at BR 13.0 isn’t just because of their missiles, but because of their speed and agility, which do make a difference.

Of course, everything is up for debate. But if you check Gaijin’s official suggestions section, you’ll see that there are currently no official proposals for BR decompression. That tells us one of two things: either Gaijin already has it in their plans, or they’re simply not interested in doing it.

Unfortunately, my previous suggestion no longer exists. I assume it was removed after I stopped following it, especially since the thread turned very toxic due to some users. I also made another post, just a simple comment without a poll, and it was mostly ignored. On the other hand, there’s a decompression poll made by someone else which, surprisingly, proposes an aggressive decompression up to BR 15.0, and yet has 91% approval. My own poll, last time I checked, had around 46% support, and it only proposed going up to 13.7.

That said, we also need to consider that specific polls like these are often biased, since the only people voting are those who actively searched for that thread or topic. If we consider that War Thunder has over 100,000 active players, a poll with just 121 votes, like the current one, barely represents anything. That’s why it’s so important for these discussions to appear in the official suggestions section, or even better, to be addressed through in-game polls run by Gaijinwhich sadly haven’t happened in a while, but would be incredibly useful.

Now, to be fair, things have improved. We’re already at BR 14.0, which was unthinkable just a few months ago. Maybe, just maybe we’ll reach 14.7 or 15.0 in the future, but right now there’s no solid reason to justify it. If it happened, we’d just see constant matches of Su-30SM vs F/A-18, and that wouldn’t be healthy for the game either.

And let’s not overstate things: there’s no MiG-23 sitting at 11.7, and the F-15J will most likely cap at 12.7. So it’s really not as bad as it may seem if you look at it objectively.

22

As someone who also plays regularly, what you say is to me like saying the sky is yellow and purple and the grass is neon. The game MASSIVELY needs decompression.

1 Like
23

You are… just … ignorant I guess? There are 3 in RB MiG-23ML, MiG-23MLA, and MiG-23MLD. The F-15 will also just stomp the F-4S and Mirage F1 and every other jet even slightly below it.

24

Don’t get frustrated. Starting with insults only shows anger and frustration, which is understandable especially if you haven’t yet reached high-tier aircraft. But you’re playing as Russia, so eventually you’ll gain access to some of the strongest jets in the game.

That said, the way you’re expressing yourself makes it clear that you’re not interested in open discussion, but rather in imposing your opinion. You’ve made your point, and that’s fine, but this thread isn’t about rehashing the decompression debate it’s about introducing a new mechanic that could enrich gameplay across multiple BR levels.

I admit I wasn’t fully up to date with the lower BR ranges after the recent changes previously the cap was 11.3, and it increased as part of a past decompression update. So I apologize for not having that in mind during this discussion.

That said, I won’t spend more time in a conversation that lacks flexibility or a willingness to listen. If you believe your perspective deserves attention, you’re welcome to create your own poll or submit a suggestion in the official channel. This thread is focused on providing a viable solution within the current game structure, not on restructuring the entire BR system from scratch.

All I’ve suggested is that, for now, it’s more practical and beneficial to implement a new mechanic like adaptive multipath behavior, which could even benefit 13.0 aircraft and those without FOX-3s, rather than wait for another full decompression pass which may eventually happen, but isn’t the core direction Gaijin seems to be taking.

25

There’s 3 in Air RB, the MiG-23ML (USSR Premium), MiG-23MLA (Germany), and MiG-23MLD (USSR).

Nvm, I see you’ve been told/realized already.

I personally want historically accurate Radar Guided missiles, however I would like them to have something more to it. An example could be it only being fully accurate in simulator battles, while soft nerfed for balance in Air RB/AB. Another idea could be making any aircraft carrying radar guided missiles with a PD radar enter a completely different bracket or higher BR range. Slow aircraft with only IR AAMs shouldn’t even have to face these things to begin with at the current state of things imo. I really want to see this for ARH AAMs in particular, and to have ARH AAMs not only have their realistic capabilities, but for BVR fights to also be realistic, forcing high alt BVR engagements and not deck skimming jousts. Just a big realism lover here. I’d also like to see directional warheads added, which could make missiles like ARH missiles less likely to deal splash damage from multipathing.

1 Like
26

If I understand you correctly, I actually like realism, but it would be difficult, because if that were the case, one of the main nations, and I think the one Gaijin cares most about, would be seriously affected. The more realistic the better, but I don’t see it as possible without Gaijin changing their overall stance. Even considering the Long Range, it would be brutal to see something with that level of realism.

I also like to play a lot in simulator.

1 Like
27

My point is directly related to adding this. It can’t happen without pretty hardcore decompression.

driving MP even lower does nothing but make gameplay even more unforgiving.

28

I’ll tentatively vote yes, but the stats definitely need to be tweaked for the missiles according to IRL data.

AIM-7F and E were almost incapable of actually doing look down attacks, R-27R and ER should share seekers (last I checked they were the same missile in terms of seeker just one with big booster), AIM-54C basically should ignore multipath with the gigantic warhead and directional fuse, and so on.

AIM-7F is one missile that would take a very significant nerf with realistic multipath, apparently there are reports of it encountering MP reflections at altitudes above 500 meters. Which is actually good, there’s basically no point in using a Phantom with Skyflash missiles when the AIM-7F is just outright superior in all applications.

29

Just to clarify, it was not due to MP. It was set there to prevent missile proximity fuze from triggering on something that might have been on the ground. Its MP limit was lower than that.

30

It is understood, in reality this is tentative and really if Gaijin were to accept it it would have to be reviewed in more detail and tested, in a realistic but fair way so that it is not something that could totally ruin the experience for everyone.

31

If you mean my poll BR Decompression in Air RB (POLL) has an approval 93% , the problem is …28 voters?? No one cares. 28 voters isn’t a number that someone will take seriously.
Not to mention , some people payed more attention to 15.0 than the decompression.
In fact i made it in a rush , when i was at work and i didn’t fix that (with a 3d option that just says decompression or something) , because i saw the attendance was horrific.
And i can’t change the poll (i tried) . So if you want make another one. It’ll be a meme if i start making 10 polls for the same thing!

Also, it’s not agressive if you think that , the 1 BR diffrence to the max limit … is at top tier. I propsed it specifically to make space for the tiers below.
There are entire BRs which are nearly unplayabe for some vehicles , so the limit has to go up to create some space for them. It doesn’t affect ^top tier^ .

32

The Idea is to stop flying below 50m (a.k.a. not useing the MP as a crutch).