Actual Panther II

Machinery of War Discussion Ground Vehicle
84

The Tiger 10.5 was a proposal. It was not an actually fleshed out design, so no, it was not a paper design. Once they started to actually try to design it, they realized that the tank basically not feasible. Not to mention that even the original proposal lacked things such as the rangefinder which is in WarThunder.

No. Panther II was never even proposed to mount the normal Schmalturm, much less the 88 mm Schmalturm. And all the documents for the 88 mm Schmalturm that I have seen specify that it is for the Panther, not the Panther II which had been abandoned a couple years before then.

Yes, as I said, it is an unfinished/paper design. There was seemingly functional wooden mockup for the turret.

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85

467px-Tiger_II_105_Concept

Aren’t all blueprint vehicles proposals at some point? Each blueprint goes through numerous revisions to ensure a working end product.

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86

Yes, at the very start when someone proposes to build such a vehicle. And then they actually make the design.

The image you’ve posted isn’t a blueprint. It just shows what the Tiger II would look like if they just put a longer barrel for the 105 mm cannon and has no other changes. It’s a proposal to look into the 105 mm and attempting to mount it on the Tiger II, with no actual modifications, specifications or technical details other than the length of the new barrel, because it hadn’t actually been designed yet. And again, as I pointed out, even this proposal lacks the rangefinder that we see in WarThunder.

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87

Ah, thanks for informing me its not an actual blueprint.

Well, from what I see, it would be possible, but the turret would’ve needed to be stretched out so the round and propellant could get into the breech.

88

Yeah, kinda suprised.

That idea of using the Tiger II (H) transmission was probably only for the E-50.

Which means that the Panther II has the same hull dimensions as a Panther but just thicker armor.

So no wonder nothing came out of the Panther II project, since it just added weight to an already overweight vehicle.

89

I am fairly certain that the Panther II was meant to have the transmission of the Tiger II (commonality between parts and all that jazz), it’s just that the one that was actually built doesn’t. Much like how there were plans to have the HL-234 or the whatever turbojet engine that the Germans was cooking up but the actual engine on the prototype is just a HL-230.

Basically, stuff that was planned for the Panther II, but simply didn’t matter because the Panther II was abandoned either way.

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90

Correct.

91

Why you say that? That doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense. German tanks were severely underpowered. If they had a HL-234 in 1943 they would have started to put them on their vehicles, but they didn’t even do that before the war ended in mid 1945.

The Chieftain said that the Panther II was getting weight but the HL-230 was suppose to make up for the loss in mobility over the production Panther with the HL-210.

If they planned to put a more powerfull engine in the Panther II than they already had, why wouldn’t they put them in every other Cat?

Maybe the idea existed that the Panther II, that was suppose to replace the Panther, would have stronger engine.
But having a vehicle like the Panther II was still a long way to go.
In the end they just incorperated some design elements of the Panther II project into the production Panthers over time, like the Ball MG mount, engine deck arrangement and a turret with a narrow profile and better protection.
A much better engine was of course never fitted but I think that it was used in some form by French tanks after WW2.

The Samua SM is basically what you get when you combine German WW2 Tech with post-war French engineering:
You get a gun in the ballpark of the German 10.5cm with a loading system that makes it more feasable with a much more powerfull engine and some armor diet to lose a few tons in weight, probably to allow it to cross more bridges.
The only thing missing is a rangefinder.

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92

Maus was finished they did extensive tests with it

93

But it was never fully assembled until AFTER the Soviets got a hold of it.

After the war, the commander of Soviet armored and mechanized troops ordered the hull of V1 to be mated with the turret of V2.

94

thats not true it was fully finished

also germany put the V1 turret on the V2 hull later when blown up the soviets put the V1 turret on the V1 hull

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95

image

Why don’t you do a thing called research?

The first prototype was destroyed, and it wasn’t fully completed, still missing several components.

The Second one has the V1 turret mated with the V2 Hull.

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98

image
One turret was a mock up, and the other wasn’t ready. Thus, it was never completed as a vehicle.

99

yes the turret was ready as it was being testet…

100

Yes, the first “turret” was a mockup. It was essentially just a big weight to simulate the turret in tesing of the V1 hull. When those tests were finished the V2 hull was built with a number of improvements to make up for found issues. The main one being a stronger engine, the one found in the game as well.

Turret V1 wasn’t the turret of hull V1, but rather the first functional turret built. It was fitted to hull V2 and tested, as seen in the images above.

When hull V2 was destroyed during the soviet attack, the soviets captured hull V1 and turret V1, mounting them together for their own testing.

So no, the Soviets weren’t the first to test a full Maus tank and the one they did test had an outdated hull compared to the one tested by the germans currently in the game.

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101

Careful Mate, or else I might fall in love with you

102

I’m ok with it, if they make some changes to the vehicles to makes them more realistic instead of this mash up of ideas.

Panther II → Turn it into a Panther F with default transmission and engine with a reload speed of around 12-14s. Reduce the gun depression to -3° or remove the rangefinder from the turret.
It should be called Panther Ausf. F mit 88mm KwK 43 L/71.
You get a long 88mm in a Panther but with sever drawbacks of reduced gun depression and RoF.

10.5cm Tiger II (H) → Remove the rangefinder, change the ammo layout in the turret, remove the second loader, change the AP round from the 15.6kg Pzgr. Rot to the intended Pzgr. 39 with 16.9kg and change the engine back to the HL 230.
You lose mobilty and the rangefinder but get the penetration of a 128mm.

Flakpanzer 341 → Very difficult to adjust since it wasn’t built and a lot of information is missing.
It’s a bit of a joke that the Ostwind 2 replaced it, yet the Ostwind 2 in-game couldn’t work with the guns set-up like that.
If we assume the guns are similiar to the 37mm FlaK 43 but top loaded, the turret would have 4 crews →
Two Loaders for the cannons, a gunner and a commander for observation and command duty.

The 37mm FlaK 43 doesn’t offer a whole lot of benefits compared to the 30mm MK 103 except slightly longer range, while the MK 103 has a larger burst mass and more importantly a higher RoF and is loaded with belts instead of the using ammunition frames.

Regular 37mm FlaK cannons would just be underpowered since the Kugelblitz offers practically the same level of firepower on the much lighter Pz IV chassis, so either the Flakpanzer 341 would have used more effective 37mm or the large 5.5cm cannons to make it worth.

There’s some information on tankencyclopedia about the 37mm but who knows, whether it is true.
But it’s certain that belt-fed 37mm cannons with +1000m/s velocity make more sense than the current guns that have roughly the same effectivness as MK 103s.

A Flakpanzer 341 with twin 5,5cm is probably more realistic, since the 37mm version was apparently canceled, meaning the fate was the same as the Panther II project.

Of course there is no real data on the ammunition for either gun, so it’s replacing someting made up with something else.

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104

Suffering 😂😂😂

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105

Yeah, you don’t read that much BS everyday 😂😂

Didn’t know we can use smileys on the forum 😋