I did, now it is simply a matter of someone acknowledging the damned report.
Even a Russian agrees with me that it should be better, especially against Helos.
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Also doesnt help that the Stinger’s Rosette seeker is not modelled in-game, which turns one of the Rosette seeker’s advantages (larger FOV) into a disadvantage in-game.
The funniest part is, I know the devs know this is wrong, because K_Stepanovich specifically talked about the Stingers POST seeker and how the R-73’s seeker was “almost as good” (ill try to find the comment at some point)
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not trying to say the stinger isn’t in a pathetic state currently, but isn’t this document mentionning chaparral (MIM-72) and not stinger ?
Its the exact same seeker, but the bug report is specifically for the Chappral which is also lacking
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That’s not something should be proud about as mostly such books that describe western weapons are mainly written based on Jane’s or similar things. Just saying.
Well here’s the report. I specifically went out of my way to make it so anyone could see every source I posted (3). Feel free to post criticism there, better to be able to fix it before a mod says “not a bug” and closes it without letting me respond.
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/BtsaTZfQiANX
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Slight hiccup, the comment from the dev about the Stinger POST seeker cant be found anymore it seems. I think its because it was in a DEV thread from “Sons of Attila” which has since been deleted (hence why I its a bad idea to ever actually use the dev threads, as anything of value stated there will cease to exist a few months later).
You should have just pm to some techmod at this point, if report wasn’t checked by them long time ago, hardly they will see it any time soon also.
@Gunjob any chance you could take a look at this? Sorry to bug you but there aren’t many mods I trust with proper bug reports anymore nowadays.
It has always done this
The IDR is one secondary source, but the rest don’t appear to cover range or are Russian (not accept for western vehicles).
Need another secondary.
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Well then, if anyone can find a corroborating source lmk. I’ve spent the last few hours looking but found nothing
It’s not accurate for the POST seeker, and currently only represents the capabilities of the FIM-92A / ATAS (we really could use Later ATAS blocks, that use the POST seeker; FIM-9C or -E) as that uses a single band Conical scan seeker, with the ability to Spotlight the detector within the FoR on the target, if it detects a Flare via rise time.
The RSS (Rosette Scan Seeker aka. POST / FIM-92B and later, also used by the MIM-72G) doesn’t have the “Pull ahead” Flare response(ala. AIM-9M), which would be caused by the Dual Band seeker it uses FOV narrowing, which is due to the Rosette being able to switch to Conical scan if Flares are detected, and can be identified and segregated from the scene due to the two distinct bands of the seeker being used to work out the emissivity of each source, which explains what additional functionality the Reprogrammable Micro-Processor, permits.
You can find a more complete explanation , and some relevant Patents
The invention resolves the problems of the prior art by a dual mode seeker having point detection in a rosette or spiral scan. Signal processing electronics continuously select the most advantageous mode of operation from the signals of a dual detector and operate within this mode to home the missile.
Therefore, it is an object of this invention to provide a dual mode target tracking seeker having point detection.
Another object of the invention is to provide a dual mode target tracking seeker having a rosette or spiral scanning of the target. Yet another object of the invention is to provide a dual mode target tracking seeker having associated signal processing electronics to continuously select the most advantageous mode of operation.
Still another object of the invention is to provide a target tracking seeker operable in both the infrared and ultraviolet wavelength regions and having a dual infrared and ultraviolet point detector to receive radiation from a rosette or spiral scanning of the target.
It should also be impacted by the Photo contrast range buff, but better since it should also ignore ground clutter, since the Contrast Channel works on IR / UV, not IR / VIS, or SWIR / MWIR, like the existing systems.
As described, the target tracking seeker of the present invention includes both IR and UV seeker elements. Accordingly, where a target may not be irradiating sufficient infrared energy to be engaged by the missile operating in its normal IR mode, the target may be tracked by the UV mode. The missile electronics can select the mode offering the best tracking information and are capable of switching from one mode to the other. As a result, cold targets or head-on targets can be successfully tracked. Also, countermeasures against one mode will not normally affect the operation of the other mode. In addition, discrimination against multiple targets and decoys with improved range and with a higher degree of background rejection achieved.
Targets which are clearly visible are detectable by a seeker operating in a visible UV mode regardless of IR target energy. The detected signal may be negative (a nonradiating target seen against a bright background) or positive (a radiating or reflecting target seen against a dark background).
Preferably, the seeker will initially operate in the visual contrast mode until an adequate IR signal is available to home the missile. If a sufficiently IR radiating target is present, the seeker may select and receive in the IR mode.
Also due to the ability to solely rely on the UV band for guidance, the POST seeker should effectively also be able to ignore Softkill DIRCM / IRCM (e.g. KA-52, AH-1F, Su-25T, etc.), and track and guide on these sources due to it being sensitive outside their operating band.
There is also the following document that simulates the Seeker logic.
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Both the APDS and Hot missiles would each require their own suggestion report. Furthermore, Gaijin uses ammo as balancing device. So even if they are forwarded doesn’t guarantee they will be implemented.
Unfortunately, it seems that despite you having a ton of details on how the POST seeker works, we dont have any more documents proving the stinger seekers range, particularly vs helis, and im not sure gaijin actually cares to model IR+UV dual band seekers (not yet at least), nor do they seem to care to properly model Stinger seekers, so the Stinger seeker will continue to underperform.
Interestingly enough as well, the different stingers and MIM-72G all seem to have some random, sometimes counterintuitive, differences in their seekers:
MIM-72G seeker warms up faster, and guides longer, but search time is shorter and can’t be uncaged before launch:
AIM-92A ATAS guidance lasts longer than the FIM-92E/K, but shorter than the MIM-72G, and it has a larger pre-launch gimbal limit at 15deg vs 8deg than the 92E/K:
It can also be seen that, due to not modelling the rosette seeker, the Stinger is 20% worse in IRCCM than the Igla, with an IRCCM FOV of 1.25deg vs 1.0deg of the Igla.
The 92K is also notably missing its datalink capability:
All of these facts, plus the very poor maneuverability will continue to make the Stinger the defacto worse MANPAD in-game, marginally better than farting in the general direction of an enemy aircraft.
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And Mistral get a 3.6° fin AOA and 1.5°FOV IRCCM
Mistral is supposed to be much better than igla and it get same wing area multiplier and worse fin AOA.
igla 10.4g 4.185° fin AOA
mistral 16g 3.6°
9M37M 20g 11.25°
10.4 is bigger than 16 in russia.
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Clearly russian technological superiority is a fact comrade.
Thats why gaijins game modelling also “just so happens” to be advantageous for russian tech and disadvantageous for western stuff, like missile diamonds and only single plain maneuverability!
Also, I just realized that the mistral situation sounds an awful lot like how the AIM-54 just got its fin AOA buff because it couldn’t properly pull the 17g max pull it currently has (which gaijin knows is too low as they themselves posted multiple sources stating its a 25G missile)
Must be a total coincidence the mistral has inadequate fin AoA…
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Because in effect the range is too heavily dependent on the size and constitution of the target, and the Time of Day to generalize.
The Patent does mention what the detecting elements are made of;
A PbS IR channel and cooled by (Argon), (reference the below table for the, PbS (77K) response curve for an example).
And a Argon cooled photosensitive Silicon element, which is bounded by a Sapphire optical element(0.2~5nm band), and so is basically limited by, the emissivity of the target, and the time of day for All Aspect range, and exhaust temperature related Black body radiation in the requisite band .
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Unfortunately, this doesnt help us prove the stinger seeker is underperforming by gaijins metrics.
I personally love getting more complex and nuanced details about a system, but were speaking of a company that wont increase the acceleration of the 2A7V without “the exact gear ratios of the new transmission” despite us knowing the 2A7V’s new gear ratios were to give it “the same acceleration as the 2A4, at the cost of reducing its top speed”
Quite frankly though, thats probably just a red hearing. Gaijin doesnt actually intend to fix the stingers seeker or the western MANPADS maneuverability, or the 2A7V’s acceleration, so they give us an “impossible task” to distract us. If we complete said task, they’ll just give us another reason they cant do it yet, and if they run out of reasons, they’ll just pretend they haven’t seen the bug report yet…
It is very cool though.
They (allegedly) artificially adjusted gear ratios on Chally 2s to make them accelerate properly, ignoring all data on their actual ratios. Yet they are adamant that we need precise data on 2A7Vs ratios to give them proper acceleration characteristics…
Double standards all around us.
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