Good concept, but Gaijin would just make it APCR, so it would be utterly useless, and a true pain to use
Conciddering the raw penetration that it can offer at a reasonable low Br i think it may very well punch some holes in everything it sees from a reasonable distance with its 1230-1260m/s velocity.
The Panther’s APCR has also very good pen, yet nobody uses it, because APCR is bad.
On tanks, that have APCR as a high pen round (and have non APCR rounds too), you will only shoot APCR, if you can’t handle the enemy with the other shell.
Just look at the Conqueror (or the Conway, it is even lower in BR). At a relatively low BR, they have more pen, than a DM33.
But then you realise, that the angle performance is pure garbage, and the damage is practically non existant. And those are APDS, that is BETTER, than APCR.
And also, high pen means nothing.
Look at the Challenger! It sits at 5.0, has high pen APDS, yet the tank is awful (and that APDS too).
When will you guys finally understand, that high pen is not something that makes a tank good.
To be entirely fair, the Panther APCR has high penetration but it’s also not very useful because the APCBC also has high penetration, with the difference ranging from 36 mm at point blank to 19 mm at 2 km. The APCBC that the Panther has can already penetrate just about anything, so there’s just no reason to use the APCR given the worse post pen damage, and barely higher penetration.
One APCR that could be considered “good”, however, is US 90 mm M304 APCR, at the BRs of 5.3 to 6.7. Despite being APCR, this round is unironically useful, mostly due to the fact that it actually gets close to it’s real life penetration, and consequently it is actually substantially more powerful than, for example, M82 APCBC (over 100 mm of flat penetration difference). In fact, M304 is so powerful that it can actually go through the Panther upper plate at 200 meters or less, and even the close range 60º penetration is higher for M304 compared to even 853 m/s M82.
However, this is just one exception among a sea of useless APCR rounds. The calculator should really be reworked, because a lot of APCR rounds right now just don’t get anywhere near close to their real life penetration values. Even the M304 APCR that I have mentioned only gets close because Gaijin mistakenly has given it a 38.1 mm core diameter, instead of 48 mm, making the core more dense than it should be and therefore achieving higher penetration. The calculator in general makes APCR rounds with smaller cores and big jackets overperform, such as BR-365P, while rounds with bigger cores and smaller jackets are underperforming.
That’s not to say all Russian APCR overperform though. There’s a very stupid case which is BR-412P for the 100 mm. This APCR round is so abhorrent that it actually has worse flat penetration than BR-412D APCBC.
I feel that if APCR got actually substantially higher flat penetration values than the basic AP rounds for the respective tank (as they did in real life), they would certainly be more useful. You’d have the option to sacrifice post penetration damage for the ability to just go through the tank more easily, such as using M304 APCR to go through the Panther upper plate, and taking out the gunner and driver on the left side, rather than using M82 and shooting the mantlet or another weak spot.
Some of those APCR shells that have less, or almost the same pen as a normal round are just the remenants of the past, when they actually had more pen.
Also, your choice of M304, and a Panther are very odd to me. The standard APHE can pen the upper plate even at 500m, but you can just shoot for the turret front, and potentially 1shot the tank. Even if it is not 1shot, everything in the turret is destroyed.
Gaijin did this in the beta test of the tanks.
I just remember, that during the first iteration, APCR was the meta. It did basically identical damage compared to APHE (even on the soviet 76mm guns), and did not have bad angle performance, and did not loose that much pen at range.
After that, they just nerfed APDS to the ground, and it is still in that stage, or even worse, since now it just shatters on everything.
Most people use APCR as a last resort (or when the tank is stock. I am looking at you american tanks-and their other tech tree variants-).
For me, i can remember only 1 time when i used it in the past 2 years, and that was, because i ran out of normal shells.
Currently, introducing a tank that only fires APCR is just going to make that tank absolutely useless. Worse than the Conqueror, and that says something.
And i get that this gun had a solidshot, but let’s be honest:
1, solidshot is not much better than APCR
2, do you honestly expect Gaijin to give it that shell(the solidshot), instead of just giving the tank 1 type of APCR and calling it a day?
This is incredibly far from the truth. My assumption is that you are using protection analysis and aligning your camera angle with the barrel, like this:
Using protection analysis like this generally leads to awfully inaccurate results, because the shot comes from much further above than what actually happens in level ground. In this precise case, I am shooting 49º when the actual plate angle is 55º.
A generally significantly more accurate way to use protection analysis is by hitting the armor plate at it’s actual vertical construction angle, like this:
It might seem incorrect, but this is significantly more accurate and I have done multitudes of tests. Tank height and bullet drop (specially bullet drop) have such a small effect that it can basically be completely disregarded and you’ll end up with accurate results. Tank height can come into play but that only happens when you’re at 50 meters or even closer.
In short, M82 fired even at 853 m/s has basically no chance against the Panther UFP, as it only has 185 mm of penetration even at point blank.
For the sake of the argument I will add extra screenshots that show this against the Panther D in the test drive using the M36B2 with 853 m/s M82. It’s in arcade so that distance is visible. On a side note the pen indicator is broken, so each of the screenshots has a shot on the top left to see if it pens or non-pens at the given distance.
Spoiler
Non-pen at 70 meters.
At roughly 60 meters the indicator turns green, but even at 30 meters it is a non-pen.
Penetration achieved only at 25 meters.
Again, this is due to using the gun depression to nullify some of the angle of the Panther’s upper plate, rather than my cannon actually having the power to go through.
Gaijin changed it in “La Royale”, specifically in update 2.27.0.22. To quote:
- Destruction mechanics of APDS and APCR rounds have been changed. Now, the projectile doesn’t destroy with impact, but loses armour piercing capability depending on thickness of the first armoured obstacle, as well as in the spaces between armoured elements affected.
It’s not perfect, but overall APDS is significantly more usable than how it was in “Sky Guardians”, where it was predetermined to shatter against specific armor plates, and overall didn’t make sense.
2 Likes
I will just give in on the APHE vs Panther upper plate.
However, the choice of APCR still makes no sense.
Why would anybody fire APCR at the upper plate, risking things, like
1, It just bounces off randomly,
2, It just shatters randomly,
3, Even if pens, it is not guaranteed to kill either the driver, or the gunner
Just shoot an APHE into the turret. That shell has enough explosive inside to 1shot the tank fairly often, but even if it does not 1shot, the whole turret is non-functioning. Breech is out, turret ring out.
Just make a followup shot an the tank is dead.
About the last update on the APCR/APDS.
Yes, they removed this pre-determined shattering, and what we ended up with? A complete mess.
APDS, and APCR just shatters randomly on any plate. The only usable APDS rounds are the british L7 and the british 120mm on the Chieftains.
All other APDS is just useless. What do i mean?
Any APDS (ecept those i mentioned) will just shatter on spaced armor most of the time.
This includes those 4mm sheet metal boxes on the sides of the tanks.
Not only that, but they sometimes shatter on a single plate. For example 17 pdr and 83mm APDS just randomly shatter on Panther upper plate, or Conqueror APDS shatters on Tiger 2.
Yet, the worse one, Conq APDS shatters on a storage box on the side of a ZSU-57-2.
For APCR, it is even more random, with of course less damage, more pen loss at distance, worse angle performance, and more shattering.
The early APDS rounds (for exampe on the 17 pdr) have problems penetrating a Panther, yet before the update they had no problem. For the Comet, that can’t pen it most of the time.
- APCR has lower ricochet chances than even APCBC in-game, to the point where it quite literally cannot ricochet off of a 55º plate. It can only ricochet from 66º and above.
- Shattering only occurs if the round faces multilayered or spaced armor that it doesn’t have enough penetration to go through. Against single plates of armor, APDS and APCR will not shatter. This is the exact opposite to how it worked on the “Sky Guardians” update, where APDS would shatter on singular plates of armor randomly. To me it just seems like you have confused both of the shattering mechanics.
I whole heartedly disagree. The update did the exact opposite. I’ve already mentioned how the APDS and APCR shattering mechanic works now. On top of that, L7 105 mm rounds like L28, DM13, M392 and m/61 (all the same round just different licensed productions) still experience shattering. It is only the 105 mm M728 and m/66, much like the Chieftain’s 120 mm L15, that don’t shatter. This is because these rounds use tungsten heavy alloy cores, instead of tungsten carbide like all other APDS and APCR.
Since “La Royale” showed up, I haven’t seen a single example of APDS shattering on the UFP of the Panther or Tiger II, which is something that happened in the “Sky Guardians” update. And given that you also haven’t provided proof I simply cannot believe that claim.
The only times I have seen APDS shatter is specifically when hitting an area that is made up of multiple plates of armor, such as additional track armor or spaced armor.
17 pounder APDS goes through up to about 800 meters, bordering on 900 meters, as the Panther upper plate offers 231.2 mm of effective protection against early APDS rounds (slope modifier of 2.89 at 55º). Comet APDS can’t go through simply because it is actually garbage and just doesn’t have enough penetration. If the Panther angles, due to the nature of early APDS, the armor effectiveness will be increased substantially. At 59º, 17 pounder APDS stops being able to penetrate the upper plate of the Panther reliably. None of this has to do with shattering in the slightest, however. It is purely slope modifiers.
Yes, it does shatter on single plates. Mostly with the 17 pdr, and the 83mm. I will not get to play those garbage tanks again, sorry for that.
And yes, the 17 pdr has problems penetrating a panther even at close ranges. Maybe due to the thypical crap damage and pen mechanics this game has, or due to the shell, i dont know.
Maybe if i get another shatter with the Conq on a Tiger 2 or something i will post a screenshot.
“It is only the 105 mm M728 and m/66, much like the Chieftain’s 120 mm L15, that don’t shatter.”
Yes, they do shatter. Both the Chieftain APDS (L15A3) and the M728 shatters (the latter on the front of an angled Conqueror last day).
If you have not experience something, it does not mean that it does not exist. Just saying.
If you won’t play those tanks, there’s even the possibility that the last time you did play those tanks was in the “Sky Guardians” update. After all, “La Royale” has been out for less than a month.
If you got M728 to shatter then you have proof. Even if you don’t have a screenshot at this precise moment, it shouldn’t be difficult to find the replay given it was “last day” according to you.
And you saying they do without proof doesn’t do any good either.
Here is a screenshot i’ve found of an APDS shattering on the T-54’s turret front (tho the cam angle is a bit bad, it did hit the turret):
If you argue that “It ClEaRlY hIT tHe SiDe”, or other BS, here is another screenshot of a shell hitting the Tiger 2’s front frontally unangled. In the kill cam it appears that the Tiger was angling, but no. It penetrated above the radio, and an added bonus, it shows how little damage this APDS does:
And you are saying they don’t shatter without any proof.
Please upload all of your replays in which you shot APDS or APCR!
At that time i was nearly finished with the 17 pdr cruisers (Avenger, Challenger, Comet), and then the update came, and made those already bad tanks even worse.
I know this, because the previous day i was slaying Jumbos in tank assault with APDS, and the other day i could not penetrate them.
I looked at the example with the T-54, and it falls into what I mention. You didn’t hit the turret, you hit the side armor, on top of three additional small bits of armor. With the current mechanic, APDS loses additional left-over penetration after going through a plate of armor, as stated on the changelog I provided. Hitting those two small steel plates on top of having air between them lead to the APDS losing too much penetration to go through the side armor at such a high angle, and made it shatter due to hitting multiple layers of armor, as I have stated is a condition for APDS to shatter.
But really the final takeaway is that this doesn’t show APDS shattering on a singular plate of armor.
The Jumbo upper plate is composed of multiple layers of armor which, again, makes APDS lose more penetration and leads them to shatter if they fail to penetrate.
BRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH.
Dude, did you actually read what i wrote?
So according to your logic, in this picture, the APDS went right through the MG operator, and did no damage to him, nor did it damage the loader, and just knocked out the engine.
Pic:
Can you understand, that the hit cam is sometimes showing different angles, compared to where you hit the enemy?
Can you understand this?
Excuse me? Did you read what I wrote? I mentioned the T-54, not the Tiger II.
I watched the replay to reach my conclusion, I didn’t look at the screenshots alone.
You 2 are quite off topic, could you please stop with the APDS APCR rant? This is about the Pak 41 and co.
This is what supposed to illustrate how inconsistent it is.
The 17 pdr does not shatter on the Jumo upper plate, it just does not pen. Maybe 1-2 shot in a 100 shatters. Same with the 83mm. But on the other hand, it shatters on a structural steel box on the side of a ZSU-57-2.
You know why i posted that pic?
TO DEMONSTRATE THAT THE HIT CAM IS SOMETIMES BUGGY, AND SHOWS DIFFERENT ANGLES COMPARED TO WHAT YOU SHOT!
Do you have the ability to understand that?
I would, but this guy just keeps on coughing up BS.