Are you taking the piss?
You’re claiming the Lvkv9040C and the Strf9040C are different enough to not be bunched together?
You know - the two vehicles in the same tree, at the same BR, using the same platform, with the same internals, the same gun using similar ammunition.
With the only difference being that one gets a radar and 2 extra crew at the expense of a worse shell. The Lvkv9040C is certainly slightly better (and is easily better than the 2S38 and is the best 10.0 IFV in the game IMO), but they play almost identically. That’s a fact.
Whilst I don’t disagree with this at all I don’t fully agree either, the fact that with good placement a 2S38 can hide it’s crew while exposing the turret and back half of the vehicle alone is pretty much in it’s favour all things considered.
But of course that doesn’t always happen.
And yes of course you can just shoot back at the 2S38, there is absolutely nothing wrong about that statement.
But at least for me the main issue is the fact that to effectively disable the vehicle from the front you’d have to go for the crew (any good 2S38 player will try to safeguard the crew against getting shredded by another autocannon tank.) You’d have to go though the “Spall liner that’s pretending to be a fuel tank” and yes of course fuel tanks are basically liners anyway, one would think that once the tank was destroyed it’d stop behaving like a spall liner, you know, like the currently implemented spall liners do. Seemingly though it stays effective even after it’s been destroyed, (E.G completely red) at least in my experience.
If you have a way of getting around that I’d genuinely like to know cause I’ve obviously got it wrong on how to combat a 2S38 user.
Which is hardly ever possible due to the lack of gun depression. Which is something that’s been recursive and something I’ve personally mentioned perhaps half a dozen times.
If he finds a very specific area where he can somehow both shoot you and remain behind cover - you can always just take out his breech and reposition, you would need to be in a very bad spot for that to be possible, though.
I have experienced this maybe ~2-3 times, out of dozens of 2S38s that I’ve one-shot directly through said fuel tank. My most played BR is 10.0 so I see them all the time, and this has not been an issue. It HAS happened, but extremely rarely (about as often as any other tank from any other tree having a krok ))) moment). Autocannons seem to phase right through into the crew, even.
I’ve also been accused of being someone who uses the 2S38/has bought one, which is wrong. I’d personally never buy that piece of crap. But I’d also never grind Russia, either.
I don’t know how you’re having trouble with them, as they’re usually free kills in my experience.
The 2S38 fuel tank is far less effective than the BMP-3 fuel tank, as well. The BMP-3 fuel tank has actually eaten plenty of rounds in my experience - the 2S38, not really.
no need for this, i’m having a civil discussion and trying my best to understand your position in the matter and why you think i’m wrong. I’m 100% ready to be disproven and change my opinion if i see something that would in the grand scheme of things impact performance to such a degree that it would lower a vehicles BR compared to a collection of other things that would increase it (thus negating each other making it stay at the BR it already is).
yes, from behind hills, its the only place i can think of. feel free to correct me but i don’t then there is any other situation where gun depression matters.
it doesn’t have less crew, as i stated before, i’m comparing to the strf NOT the lvkv. the strf also has 3 crew. and again “far lower survivability” is situational.
From behind cover the 2S38 survives infinitely better as the strf has 2/3 of its crew visible in the turret when peaking and will at least loose one crew (and most likely die) if hit in the turret that has no liner. the 2S38 also has a way smaller area of the turret that will actually do any sort of damage at all to the tank after penetration, most of the shots that hit the turret will pass through doing nothing. those that hit gun or breech will damage it but with that repaired no permanent damage has been done, the only place to do damage to its turret is the tiny area of ammo that could explode and get you a kill.
in open fields and in CQC the strf will survive A LOT better as it has liner, better armor and a frontal engine/transition.
going by your earlier statement that the gun depression is the most important gun handling function i assume that you (as well as i) think that the main role of these two are shooting from behind cover then the survivability goes in favour for the 2S38 does it not?
oh absolutely, but that does not mean that you automatically hit that area if either you or it are moving.
the difference here is that the 2S38 has more places where the shot will effectively do nothing to it whilst the strf looses 1 or 2 modules almost wherever you hit.
hitting the 2S38 “in the middle” from the side is not a guarantied kill, there is several areas where the shot might yellow some modules or crew but not take anything out to the point of needing repairs. and if it does take out breech, gun, turret ring or gunsight you can still drive and try to hide (the strf cant since if you hit in those areas you also kill the crew and thus the entire tank).
spall liners help, but the area of instant kill in combination with second shot kill is still larger on the strf (NOT the lvkv, i dont know why you are still comparing to it, the 2S38 is much more related to the strf). still only 3 crew, not 5.
gun depression yes, (again feel free to correct me). but i said “almost exclusively”, not entirely, about survival (as described above).
higher RoF matter less than pen on these types of vehicles, it matters yes, but less (on MBT’s i would argue the other way around), if a tank shoots you and misses it matters little if you shoot 20 rounds or 10, it matters more if you in that time hit and destroy the breech or barrel (or with some luck the turret ring and kill it). if you surprise a tank it again RoF matters little, both of them will kill it from the side before it can do anything back.
the main area where RoF matter is AA as volume of fire increases chances to hit a fastmoving target, and there the 2S38 has the IR-tracking and a better proxy round to make up for that (and then some as that helps other areas too). lack of APHE i have not talked about and do agree that it matter extremely little, i don’t really know why you brough it up.
?
i’m just trying to have a normal discussion to increase my understanding on the vehicle and peoples position around it. i’m trying to be as factual as i can and with as little bias as i can (although it is to some degree unavoidable) to collect information that would help me BR-place it. i have no personal quarrel with the 2S38 as i don’t find it an issue when i face it, i’m just doing data collection and calculations to see where it would land in BR between the 2 most compared to vehicles.
statistically yes, for uses to compare to the 2S38 yes.
one is mainly used for anti air and the other is mainly anti tank.
i said nothing on specific stats, i said “uses and fuctions”.
they play differently and players will use them differently and such will garner different results.
they are almost identical in pure numbers, but their different roles makes them play differently enough that statistically you cant bunch them together.
looking back at the statistics you linked earlier they very much don’t play “almost identically”. the lvkv is MUCH more anti air oriented and is played as such to a way greater extent. saying “That’s a fact” feels disingenuous as it at least statistically is clearly shown not to be.
I also don’t understand your claim of the lvkv being “easily better than the 2S38” when as i showed earlier in my calculations (thus disregarding anecdotes and personal feelings/experiences) when comparing to the strf that almost all of the stats are better for the 2S38. it is much closer in playstyle to the strf because they both don’t have radar, the strf gets a better round making the main round closer to the 2S38 and lastly having the same amount of crew.
Well, you’re not really having a discussion. You keep bringing up extremely skewed scenarios and expect me to continue writing articles upon articles debunking them one by one.
Like - I have to go and focus on every single part piece by piece, such as this:
This is a stupid situation as you’re implying the 2S38 has perfectly found a spot where there’s a rock/other piece of cover where only his turret is visible. On top of that - the CV90 has two crew on two sides, and a turret shoot is going to only kill one crew in 99% of cases. AKA, it won’t die from a turret shot.
The best cover (and most reliable) in the game is based on gun depression.
Hills, any area with a height advantage (where you SHOULD be), and every map has it. Using your gun depression is the main way to hide your hull. On top of that, the 2S38’s hull is larger, more susceptible to autocannons - and is mainly ammo/crew inside.
You don’t seem to understand that this:
Applies more to the Strf9040C than it does for the 2S38.
Shooting the front of the Strf from the side will only kill the driver. All that space between the area in front of the gunner/commander and the front of the vehicle is a non-kill.
If the Strf 9040C’s hull is facing you from the side, while its turret is facing your tank - you’ll only realistically be able to take out one crew member, as well, because of the spall liner. You can’t test this in the garage as the turret is always facing forwards, but I’m willing to bet it’s what happens in a real match. You can tell how little spalling there is, due to the spall liner.
Shooting the turret crew will obviously always result in only ONE crew member dying, as well:
And shooting the middle doesn’t seem to result in both of them dying, ever. In fact, shooting the middle of the turret usually only takes out the breech and doesn’t kill anyone.
Dead. Ammo blowout. Instant kill. Also possibly kills two crew members (this one was 1 dead and another orange).
That entire area in the middle is an instant kill. Shooting slightly in the front is an instant kill. Shooting the turret slightly lower is an instant kill.
Both the 2S38 and Strf9040C don’t have any crew/ammo in the rear 50% of the tank, except the 2S38 has the engine there, and will get mobility killed. The Strf9040C has literally nothing there other than the radiator.
The 2S38 getting shot in the middle will OHKO the tank with an ammo explosion. Shooting the front from the side will kill the 3 crew lined up. The Strf will only lose the driver and the engine when shot in the front, and you need to hit a fairly small area in the side to OHKO the gunner/commander. IF IT ISN’T the Lvkv9040C, which has 5 crew :).
Here’s a shot in the front going through the gunner, into the ammo - and being an instant kill.
And you expect me to not say that you’re taking the piss.
The 2S38’s “stats” that are better are:
horizontal traverse
50mm more pen on the APFSDS and the option for APHE
3hp/t more
has an unmanned turret (with a platform that isn’t built to take advantage of it, as it’s just a BMP bodykit)
The Strf/Lvkv’s stats that are better are:
THREE TIMES HIGHER rate of fire
better reverse speed
great spall liner coverage
higher survivability (literally proven here, albeit anyone could have said that at a glance)
considerably better gun depression
far more resistant to autocannons (the 2S38 is not resistant to 25mm APDS or greater and will die momentarily, and can even be 50cal’d from the side at point blank)
the Lvkv9040C has 2 extra crew (incredible advantage)
the Lvkv9040C has a radar
So, what’s wrong with you?
Next, “the Lvkv is MUCH more anti air oriented”? Hello?
The Lvkv IS AN STRF 9040C. Except a slightly weaker APFSDS shell, but 2 extra crew and a radar. HELLO.
It’s the SAME TANK, except MORE SURVIVABLE, but with a weaker shell. Personally - I would rather take the Lvkv9040C for anti-tank duties just because of the 2 extra crew that make it less likely to get one shot and allow it to survive more. The slightly higher pen of the m/01 isn’t that much of an advantage over the 2 crew extra.
i genuinely don’t understand how they would be sewed. i’m trying to be as objective as i can.
and that is what a discussion is, a back en forth of arguments and counter arguments until a consensus is reached.
yes, that is the pint isn’t it? what would the alternative be?
this happens almost every game i play in any vehicle, that is my main playstyle. sure there are maps that does not have it (like cargo port) but a vast majority of maps do have many positions exactly like that.
saying “it wont die” full stop just isn’t factually true, the odds are lower because the crew are split, but any shot in the central area will spall and hit both (or hit the magazine under the breech killing it). sure, i exaugurated by using the words “most likely die”, and i do take that part back, but it still at the very least does lasting damage and kills one crew. make that shot at an angle and those odds of a one shot kill increase with the angle.
agreed to a large extent, but there are very few maps where the hills are made in such a way that you can’t reposition to find a place on it with less incline. it’s an issue yes, but one that more often than not can be solved.
larger? i don’t think so? lets check.
using numbers for 2S38 from military today and for CV90 from here i get:
strf:
length: 7m width 3.38m height 2.7m (with turret)
2S38:
length 7.2m width 3.23 height 2.4m (with turret)
i’m guessing the turrets of the two are about the same height (i even think the 2S38 turret is a small bit lower).
i’m just guessing here but lets say the turret is about 0.4m so subtract from both heights.
side area:
strf: 7x2.3=16.1 sqr meters.
2S38 7.2x2=14.4 sqr meters.
i might have done this wrong, feel free to correct me.
also worth noting is that by removing the height of the turret we also remove the area of weak spot that the turret is on the strf.
More susceptible to autocannons? yes absolutely.
mainly ammo/crew inside? i would say that the total area of crew from front is the same and from side is larger on strf. total area of ammo is a lot larger on 2S38.
i would not call that a center shot, but it makes a different good point, the strf’s weakpoints are way more condensed, hit center or front and you often hit more than one thing. the 2S38 gets hit and its often only one thing that gets damaged (unless crew/ammo kills the entire thing).
agreed.
non kill on first shot, will kill with sekond. but i do see your point.
side view:
shot at back does almost nothing to the strf but takes the engine of the 2S38 making it a sekond shot kill. advantage strf.
shot at center hull almost always kills both of them, 2S38 with ammo and strf with ammo or crew.
(hit turret the 2S38 survives but the strf survives) TINY advantage 2S38 with turret survivability.
shot at front crew kills 2S38. the strf gets second shot killed.
front view:
hull shot left half kills both strf and 2S38 (both majority crew and ammo for both), shot to the left half takes engine and gunner of strf and kills 2S38 (second shot kill strf as gunner is also out)
so that’s an advantage in survival for strf regarding the hull. but as you said
so hull wont be shown if you use the best and most reliable cover anyway. but yes, it is a point in the strf favour.
this i find very weird as this is how i die in it most of the time.
(
Sidenote:
i feel like you are cherry picking here. that shot is straight at the ammo, i specifically mentioned areas with nothing behind. i can find a lot of places where the shot only makes things yellow or orange.
)
BUT i will have to agree with you here and change my earlier statement as i had no idea the 2S38 spalled the way it did, that is horrendous (not even the strf B without liner spalls that much) x) thanks for showing me that. so the strf is vastly more survivable when it come to hull shots.
The last bit i agree to the points but your bad attitude makes me instinctively not want to answer, you are not helping your point here by doing this, no matter how factually correct you are. i will answer regardless but please, you are not helping either me or yourself by being angry, mean and saying things in affect. it will not help your cause.
higher fire rate does not make it worthy of higher BR. i think this is why people bring up the HSTV-L as an example (but i’m not sure), as it has conciderably lower fire rate but also conciderably higher penetration. i wont get into the HSTV-L more here as it digresses from the discussion we are having.
top speeds matter way less than acceleration, but yes, the top speed is higher.
as i own the strf C and can testdrive the 2S38 i have just now tested the reverse in realistic test drive of both.
the 2S38 tops at 20 after about 2 seconds going straight back, if you turn it falls to about 15 and then back up to 20 very fast.
the strf has way higher top reverse, it comes to ~23km/h after 3 seconds and then slows down in acceleration significantly, taking about 2 more seconds to hit 30km/h. 1 more second lands you at 33-34km/h and then it almost does not accelerate any longer.
after 6 seconds of backwards driving the difference was about 1.5-2m in distance.
i did not know the strf accelerated backwards that fast at the lower speeds.
so i would now after testing put them about equal in that departement as if you after 6 seconds aren’t in complete cover you are getting shot at again.
next three points are all the same thing and an advantage to the strf.
im not comparing to the lvkv.
i do not understand your point here at all, you are saying one thing but making it out to be something else. or am i missreading? i’m very confused.
in my mind giving a vehicle a worse round and instead a radar and higher gun elevation is exactly what makes it more AA oriented. if you look at the stats you linked the air kils are 6 times higher on the lvkv than either of the other two.
yes, that i agree to, i have not said anything about that.
changing only one or two things on a tank can make it play vastly differently and thus the K/D cant be melded to create a combination of the K/D stats as the playstyles are different.
this is a personal preference more than anything else. i personally would choose the other way around because that is how i play and like my tanks.
you are making this out to be like i’m claiming they are extremely different tanks (which i am not).
the only two things i have claimed is that the strf is closer to the 2S38 exactly because of those differences to the lvkv and that the strf and lvkv are used sufficiently differently in matches and cant be combined to get an average performance of K/D to use for either of them.
could you explain this more? the images confuse me as the turrets tops (excluding the periscope of the 2S38) are at the same height as the house in the background.
that and all the data i can find whilst searching about the irl vehicles show those numbers or something there around.
You were literally corrected.
Military-today and other such sites are not sources. They’re not even a secondary source.
The 2S38 is considerably taller - more specifically, its GUN is a lot taller, which is why the -5 gun depression being a problem is further exacerbated, and the unmanned turret advantage is gone. The Strf9040’s -8 gun depression is a lot better because the tank itself (and specifically its breech) is far lower.
How does it matter if you hit “more” things - if in the 2S38 - it’s either crew or ammo? That will kill you instantly? It’s like you’re implying that it’s worse to get hit in the breech, horizontal drive, radiator, etc - instead of in the ammo where you die instantly. Just because there’s more things. ???
And lastly, because I think this conversation can come to a close now.
I would recommend that you actually play multiple trees to better understand the weaknesses/strengths of these vehicles.
This is your rapport in Russian AND Chinese vehicles. AKA tech trees with “Eastern” design features.
That is to say - it’s quite obvious that you have no experience in them. I would recommend actually playing them and feeling their disadvantages for yourself.
I personally played the US up to the Abrams and IPM1 (back when they were the end of the tree), and the entirety of China (which is Eastern/Western vehicles combined, and now finally some domestics slowly dripping in). Along with a little bit of everything else.
And I’ve felt both of them. And I know what to look out for. I could easily tell that most of your downright loony takes are clearly from a viewpoint of someone who’s never really experienced these vehicles.
not really corrected. you just stated “you’re wrong” and showed an image from in game. (that i saw after my post as you posted a second time before i posted my respons to your first one, i hadn’t seen it yet and now that i have i don’t understand it).
what sources could i use that are considered valid to get the irl heights of both?
i don’t understand your response here as i further down in my post (just after the quote you made) acknowledged you point and gave it to you?
i have started to. but i would also argue that playing a vehicle and facing it in game shouldn’t really have any impact on BR-placement calculations as they are not supposed to be based on individual player experience.
see above.
and if you want to go down that route your stats aren’t really that diverse either at the ranks discussed
but as i said, individual player experience should not impact BR-placement calculations.
vast amounts of player statistics on the vehicles might though.
neither have you? in either of them? i don’t see the point in making this statement.
again, does not matter for calculations. but i very clearly have played the strf a lot so i have at least some experience in one of them. you have played neither of them. you have 15 games in the IPM 1 and 138 in the M1 Abrams. no games in any us tank rank 6 and only 265 games total in rank 5? how on earth did you manage that?
but again, this does not matter.
i don’t know the in game heights and i don’t know how to see them. the screenshots you provided i cant interpret.
i thought i did:
started, not gotten far, like at all. but still started.
i’m focusing on the higher ranks as that is where the discussed vehicles are at, playing lower ranks wont make you face them or experience them (and i still don’t think this matters for the discussion, but still a point to make as your statement was that you played against both and know how they feel to face).
Going by pure player stats from thunderskill (apparently questionable source) and exclusively realistic mode, i think its K/D comparable to most other light autocannon tanks at 10.0 (IIRC). but if you take into account arcade as well then no. and i don’t think we are able to see the stats from all players in total.
unnecessary and demeaning, please stop.
does ESL matter? do you think i write in any sort of way insufficiently well in English?
sure, but that is not what we are talking about. i fully agree. but it makes little point for this comparison in my opinion.
Getting them when they were top does not explain this without further explanation.
i have now looked it up and as i understand it the entirety of rank 6 got added after the M1 Abrams and IPM?
in that case then i also assume that most of the games you played with those two vehicles were before the addition of the 2s38 in 2022?
No, it just means you played passively just like an ATGM TD should be played and got remarkedly lucky, but now try that with an MBT - on a city map. You btw don’t have a K/D of 2.0 either in the M113 TOW, you’re sitting at 1.72, which is the average for this vehicle… considering the fact it has a total registered match count of 33 for the past month.
Aside, it’s an outlier when checking out your stats, seeing as CM25 has a K/D of 0.58, lol.
But hey, it’s not like M113 is actual garbage in any other situation, right? You’re grasping at straws honestly, actually pathetic.
Your entire post is dogwater, but the fact that you got 6 likes is downright incredible. Goes to show how uneducated people seem to be about basic game mechanics and gameplay.
Mate, all you do is attack people for their posts regardless of the substance, aren’t you a bit tired of this childish tirade by now?
Well, not that it matters to me. Enjoy writing your next worthless post & make sure to include as many insults as you can, since that’s pretty much the only thing you’re good at :p
Wow! You’re finally beginning to grasp the concept that people have been trying to explain to you, amazing! Took you only about ~3 days I think? A garbage vehicle can still perform well in its “natural habitat”, but put it into any other and what are you gonna get, a waste of SP.
I’ve played more than enough Russian vehicles to know that they’re bad at hilly maps due to their limited gun depression ability, but put them into a town and they become S-tier brawlers, especially the BVM - same thing here, just that instead of cities, it’s the hilly maps where the M113 excels because it can make use of its advantages over other AFVs.
You write this drivel and expect anything less. You should be thankful I’m even taking into account what you’re writing.
Do you want a pat on the head too? To me it looks like you’re starved for attention.
Honestly, this debate of the 2S38 needing to be moved up in br has ended multiple times by now.
Nano, Sneed, and others have debunked every bs argument the whiners brought up.
1188 comments and not once it was proven that the darn thing needs to get moved up.
SRB? Like the country?
I’m just gonna assume that you’re talking about GRB.
And I think the Begleit, Radkampfwagen 90, Type 16, Dardo, VCC, Freccia, the Strf9040C, Lvkv9040C and Strf 9040 BILL and CV90105 are all “one of the best vehicles” around the BR range of 10.0.
I would personally take any of the Italian ~10.0 IFVs and any of the Swedish 10.0 IFVs over the 2S38. I bought the Italian premium OF-40 almost entirely because of their 10.0 IFVs. Especially with the spike buffs, which have gone unnoticed by most. (I noticed them because my friend plays the Vilkas and I play the QN506.)
