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bro you sound like the guy who argues about the hesh shell, you just had a skill issue, better luck next time.
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Those numbers are not even related. Having more pen does not equal having more armor and vice versa.
Like a churchill mk7 killing my panzer 4 and me asking “how did he pen my tank? I have more pen”
Or a churchill mk7 blocking my round and me asking “how did me block my round? He gun has less pen.”
I know, a situation you will never be in because you “know how to execute all possible survival tactics in each battle”. I was driving home the point that you should never be just sat broadsiding an enemy and any scenario where this is the case isnt really worth discussing because it should never actually be happening in game, but of course you knew that because you know everything so there is no need.
I think your shift key got stuck here.
There has got to be some degree of the language barrier here, no way are you a native english speaker and are talking like this without even a hint of self-awareness about how arrogant it sounds. Nobody knows everything about the game, I dont, and you certainly dont if you are creating posts on the forums, especially ones where you show very plaintively that there is a lot you do not understand about how naval mechanics work. Have some humility.
You have now included a load of screenshots at 15000m range, so i’ll talk about the matchup at this range, and how it does or does not change, as well as addressing your specific comments and screenshots.
Ok, i’ll put it in simple terms. Lets say Ship1 has a round with 210mm of penetration, and ship2 has a round with 10mm of penetration. But also, ship1 has 5mm of armour, and ship2 has 215mm of armour. what is going to happen in this scenario? The amount of penetration a round has is only one factor in the overall set of a ships capabilites, and if another ship has more armour that can resist the more powerful shells, and you do not have the armour to resist that ships shells, you will come out worse even though you have the more powerful shells.
In this screenshot you have picked a very specific part of the armour where there are intersecting plates and this particular plate is very highly angled, causing the effective thickness to be much higher here than anywhere around it, as shown in the screenshot below.
there are a couple of places around this area that the Scharn can penetrate, i have included some examples below.
I never claimed that the Scharnhorst could penetrate the Main belt on the Mutsu when angled, it cannot at the original ranges i showed and i included a screenshot of it not penetrating, and used that in my explanation. Not really sure why you have mentioned this given that i already made a point of this.
Again, you are picking particularly well armoured parts of Mutsu. The turret faces do not cover the entire turret, and as such the Scharn can shoot in any of these places to disable the Mutsu’s turrets:
Overall the matchup does not really change at this range, there are still many parts of the Mutsu that the Scharn can penetrate fairly easily that will cause massive crew loss and critical damage, and the Scharns armour only gets more effective with the range. The pace of the fight at this range will slow, due to the fewer hits landed because of the increased dispersion at the range, but the Scharn is still superior, and will come out on top 9/10 times.
How so? Do explain. You are literally demonstrating your lack of understanding, or at least a dogged defense of an indefensable position. In all the previous screenshots you are picking the most armoured parts of the Mutsu to compare, but they are not the issue, you are not getting killed because you are being penned there. You are being killed because of all the places where the Mutsu does not have good armour coverage, and there are a lot of these places. You do not seem to understand that the Mutsu is not as well armoured as you think it should be.
I understand fully the “satire” in the idea of an 11.3 tank not being able to pen a 2.7 one, but you are again showing a lack of unerstanding of what is going on by even making that comment at all.
Everyone knows naval isnt balanced, America has the strongest naval tree from the start up to battleships and then Germany has the best 7.0 battleship. However, people are not going in droves to play germany because the Scharn is the best 7.0, if anything America is the most played nation because it is the strongest everywhere else.
I’m not really sure why you think the Mutsu is some god ship that should be the strongest in the game. The guns are stronger, but not by enough to make a huge difference, and it is armoured comparatively with many other 7.0’s. You would probably have more luck if you were playing the Conte de Cavour, because the Conte’s armour is actually quite strong at the very long ranges due to the many layers it has.
Everyone knows the Scharn is the strongest ship in game, this isnt being disputed, and never was. Maybe if you presented a logical argument based in reality, and werent generally insulting in everything you say, people might take you and what you say seriously.
Yes, like i have said several times, it is the strongest ship in game. However, it is not due to magic armour, or magic shells or a crew composed purely of 2000 Popeyes, it is due to its armour scheme, and the placement of the crew and armour. The issue is not the Scharn itsself, its to do with everything around it, and the general compression and lack of contemporaries in naval.
I dont really understand how you can so authoratively act like you know exactly what I mean when I say things, and what the aim is of me saying those things, when you clearly do not natively speak the language, and then act like I am an idiot because of your flawed interpretation of the situation. I’m not slating you for not speaking perfect English, but again, you should have some self awareness that maybe it is you who isnt understanding what is being said and why. I do apologise if the way I type is a little more difficult to fully understand than others. Also, if you cannot control yourself and cannot help yourself from typing obscenities and insults like the line below that comment then you might need to go to some self control or anger management classes. Being able to not say anything when you have nothing nice to say is a very useful skill in life.
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I admire your patience but I think in this case you are preaching in the wilderness.
I hope you don’t misunderstand me, I don’t think you are wasting your time, on the contrary, I think that what you have written can help many people with little or no naval experience.
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Agreed. This is this persons at least 2nd topic on this, and each time they’ve been told exactly what is happening, why its happening, and they just get angry. Some people on here do not want any help it seems.
Shoutout @T3ddy4 for insane naval knowledge.
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I think you are correct, OP came in with a set mindset and a narrative in his head already, and is defending it all the way. The issue has changed from a problem with the penetration mechanics of the game, to the Scharn having magic armour and guns and crew, to now its just that the Scharn is too powerful and is ruining all of naval causing everyone to move to germany and no other nation. Maybe when he gets over himself and gives what ive said a proper read then he mgight learn something, maybe not.
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Its mostly just there in the game for people to see, with the crew distrobution and the armour view, and so on, and what isnt in game is generally in the wiki.
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Can’t help people who don’t want to be helped.
I mean, I kinda get his perspective, on paper something with 11inch guns, in my head, sounds like “meh, surely that wouldn’t be better than x battleship with 14/15/16inch guns?” (I’ve completely forgotten what the Mutsu is armed with, again)
But equally Scharn’s armour is of a, so I understand, a more modern design/doctrine and so is more effective than Mutsu’s (per tonne of armour if you will), and Scharnhorst is something like 15-20 years newer in terms of design and technology?
It’s entirely Gaijin’s fault for not adding contemporaries (as much as you can do, in the same way that I’m still fuming over how Douglas is 4.0 and Bravy is 5.3, and there’s no contemporaries despite there being a few to add)
This is basically it, the 105mm turtleback plate makes a massive difference, as well as the thicker and larger main belt. The plans for the Nagato class were finalised in 1918, and the one we have in game is before the modernisation she recieved in 1936, so although she does have a similar sloped plate behind the main belt, it is both thinner and less angled, she has thinner barbettes and many more gaps in the armour scheme overall, and that armour has to cover a larger area where the crew is located, where the crew on the Scharn is more concentrated in a few areas.
Yeah basically.
I wont go into this in massive detail, but basically in terms of naval guns, the diameter of the barrel is the most commonly used metric, but doesnt actually tell us much about the gun and the ammunition itself, it doesnt tell us the weight of the shell, or the amount of propellent used. I would also liek to mention that the Japanese didnt use Inches for this measurement, and so the guns aboard the Nagato’s were 410mm, which is 16.1", just like the guns aboard the Yamato’s were 460mm, or 18.1". Either way, the weight of shell and amount of propellent matters lot in terms of the muzzle velocity and the overall penetrative power of the round, at different ranges. The Mutsu’s improved AP shells weigh one tonne each, whereas the AP shells from the 11" guns on the Scharn weigh 330kg each. This means that those rounds fired from the Mutsu that are fired at 790m/s but are a full 100m/s slower out of the muzzle than the rounds from the Scharn. The Scharn’s guns are also longer, and it is easy to get confused here, because in terms of naval guns, Calibre can refer to 2 things. Firstly, the diameter of the barrel, and secondly, the length of the gun from where the rifling startsto where it ends where each calibre is one single full rotation of the rifling. So, the Mutsu’s guns are 16.1", 45 caliber guns, so there are 45 full rotations of the rifling in each gun. The Guns aboard the Scharn are 11" 54 Calibre guns, and so while the barrels on the 16.1" are slightly longer, there is more rotation imparted on the Scharn’s shells, and the Scharns guns work at a higher pressure. I’m not going to get into the specific dynamics of light/heavy/superheavy shells and how they would effect peentration, but generally, the lighter shells are more efficent with their effectiveness at short range, and the heavier you get the more efficient they stay with their effectiveness at longer ranges, especially in the role as plunging fire at extreme ranges, given that actual engagemnt ranges both in game and in real life are under 24km, and often much closer in game, the lighter shells have the advantage. All of this is why the Scharn’s shells are able to keep quite high penetration for their calibre, compared to the 12" gun armed dreadnoughts using heavier shells and shorter barrels. Also worth noting, is the guns on the Graf Spee are nearly exactly the same, but just have shorter barrels, and have much decreased penetration because of it.
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