…And what exactly led you, and him:
To continue to bring up HIGH EXPLOSIVE even when the conversation is clearly regarding APFSDS?
How did you think this conversation would play out?
1 Like
So where does the imparted momentum from said AP shell’s impact go? Sure armor might be pretty advanced but it would be very obvious if it was somehow being vanished into the aether or otherwise.
1 Like
For what it worth
-There are no disclosure about Abrams internal spall liners “yet” .
(There are a few source saying that Abrams had spall liners. but not official one like manual. So if it was Integrated Spall Liner. It would likely be classified infomation as it would be another the part of composite armor)
So with no official on either side. We still not know if Abrams has spall liners or not.
The only way we would know is when Abrams armor being declassified (at least the first one) or anythings mention why not putting one on Abrams.
Or when the next generation Abrams tank would have “spall liners” state in its upgrade list.
I’ve been trying to find any mention about spall liners on Abrams X project as well. Nothing so far.
In term of ingame balance with spall liner
Gaijin could just give Ballistic vest+helmet to compensate the lack of spall liners to any vehicles that need them
If they care that is.
Because by design last layer can be made to not spall or barely has any spall ? You know ? with combination of laminate design and metallurgy ? Ductile steel ? steel engineering ?
You say that a spall liner only exists to catch spall when penetration occurs, and I corrected you. I don’t understand what the deal is.
CodeNameColdWar put it succinctly with this:
5 Likes
Yep, there’s a lot of laminate designs and magic engineering to not make basic RHA spall.
This Abrams interior is clearly lined with adamantium liners and not a very basic RHA weld that literally anyone can tell is just normal RHA.
By the way - you do realize your image is all cases that we’re not talking about?
We keep talking about a penetration, which is what causes spall in this game.
You keep bringing up high explosive, petalling, “ductile steel”, without realizing that you’re just making clowns of yourselves. RHA will spall when penetrated fully, and the Abrams interior is clearly RHA. There is no liner, no internal “physics” you try to bring up as you grasp at straws will ever stop the simple truth that, when penetrated, RHA will spall.
And the Abrams didn’t end up very effective against high explosive shells anyway… If we’re talking about magic “shock absorbing” materials.
Are you sure?
would imply that its not RHA / HHA used for internal elements
3 Likes
I’ve literally shown you sources that experiment with this exact idea, why do you think it is impossible?
Again, a shock absorbing material will still massively reduce spalling even in the case of penetration (I have already shown this in the above sources).
2 Likes
Your non-direct article, that isn’t a technical manual, or anything at all.
Is LITERALLY - only talking about how armor in general works.
You’re essentially taking things out of context that aren’t even directly talking about any specific Abrams variant or specifically anything at all, and construing this entire narrative from that.
I would be ashamed, personally.
Nothing you’ve shown is a source. None of it would ever be accepted by Gaijin. None of it is even direct nor does it prove anything.
You yourself are unable to comprehend how stupid ^ this is.
The fact that you’re able to write all of this malarkey without a tinge of shame, thinking you can count unfocused rants about “evaluations” and “general information” about loosely related topics as something to directly affect the Abrams…
It is absolutely insane. I cannot believe that someone can be this much of a madman.
“All that needs to happen to get rid of spalling is make the force of the shock wave that the interior surface experiences be less than the dynamic strength of the interior’s dynamic strength.”
Just pure ramble.
It proves that the material science behind the idea works, and that a spall liner does not solely need to be in the form of curtains.
Really? Did you read the sources? I am literally showing you that the idea of a liner meant to reduce the amount of spall created through shockwave absorption is a thing:
“As is, the spall liners do not actually reduce the amount of spall that occurs. Instead this after the fact suppression technique accepts that the spall will occur and the problem is to attenuate the effects of the spallation. What is actually needed and proposed in this study is an attempt to incorporate analytical methods to determine suppression techniques and then confirm it by extended experimentation.”
“Therefore for certain jet impact conditions, the reflected shock wave strength at the interior surface of the target is less than or equal to the dynamic strength of the material at the interface. Under these conditions, the target material will not spall, even though the jet perforates the target.”
“In addition, it is recognized that the shaped charge jet penetration is basically unaltered by the addition of the liner; the primary function of the kevlar liner is spall and associated fragment suppresion.”
“Very little supporting experimental work has been undertaken but the report suggests that relatively thin liners can significantly reduce or suppress spalling, with consequent reduction in behind-plate lethality. (If the liners are thick, a further reduction in lethality by spall absporption in the backing material can occur; this is not analysed in the note).”
“The more important guides towards methods of increasing spalling in attack or suppressing spalling in defence may then by indicated.”
“Furthermore although fracture may occur, spall detachment cannot unless there is more than sufficient energy in the system to cause circumferential failure by shear, for in this region there is considerable localized strain and it is only when a critical value of strain is reached that failure occurs. Thus a backing either inhibits fracture altogether or positions fracture such that the mass and velocity characteristics of any spall produced are reduced. The suppressing influence of the backing can of course be redressed by increasing the strength of the incident wave.”
You’re just straight up trying to ignore how physics works, I guess.
6 Likes
You do get that it is a technical report written, by a nation that operates the Abrams.
Guess what American armor, Australia uses?
it references US standards (e.g MIL-DTL-12560K(MR), MIL-DTL-46100E(MR), MIL-DTL-32332(MR) , MIL-A-46099C ). And further Ballistic Testing of Swedish Steel for U.S. Armor Applications
Its has some implications on their characteristics, especially the for the M1 AIM.
3 Likes
It’s very apparent why there’s so much whining on the American side.
They think drowning the person in pointless conjecture counts as a source and that every excerpt is another source - yet have no real sources other than loose implications.
You can send all of this as 300 sources that the Abrams has an integrated spall liner and should be invincible, and Gaijin will happily shoot it down.
The only problem is that you people utterly flood the forums and every comment section with this asinine, facetious “argumentation” so that it seems “strong”.
You have no numbers. You have no images. You have no real data. You’re trying to hide the fact that you have nothing to stand on by piling on information that is of no use to anyone actually trying to model the Abrams.
1 Like
Australia isn’t a developer and doesn’t build the M1 under a license, the document also appears to be relatively recent and would only apply to newly build vehicles which doesn’t bode well for the “ductile RHA” argument considering the last newly constructed M1s in US service are all dated to 1993 and from then on, they’re just rebuilds.
Anyways, here’s the steel that’s likely used on the M1s;
It isn’t some fancy non-spalling ductile RHA, it’s basic HHRHA/RHA and it is also used on a few German AFVs.
Shifting the goalpost from “spall liners can only function if they’re the final layer” to “well you don’t know that the Abrams uses such a spall liner,” huh? Also, a bug report regarding the missing integrated spall liner has already been acknowledged: Community Bug Reporting System
No? What goalpost? There’s no such thing as an internal spall liner. It only functions as the final layer. So, no. Nor did I say otherwise anywhere yet? Are you having a delirious fit?
1 Like
Bruh, you are blatantly ignoring that it does not need to be the final layer:
Not the wall of text in response to my basic logic backed up by images and actual data?!
You should post that wall of text on the community bug reporting site.
Here you go - Community Bug Reporting System
Make the report.
1 Like
Some users here are implying that documents don’t mention spall liners because it is classified and sensitive information, like the armour is.
This is slightly amusing to me because we’ve got documents that make absolutely no effort in hiding the fact that some M1’s did feature spall liners:
The M1 CATTB featured conventional spall liners for the interior of the turret, it even specifies the exact amount, density and location of said spall liners without any hint of withholding this information for being sensitive.
1 Like
Again, I have already shown sources to prove that is incorrect. Literally scroll up and I show that. They are literal studies on how to create spall liners that are meant to reduce and/or suppress spall generation rather than solely catch spall. READ THE SOURCES.
1 Like
That aside, I can’t get over how idiotic the motion of using low-strength ductile steel for the backplate is. It’s almost as if you’re asking to be easily perforated by removing ~100mm worth of KE from the armour when the same kind of job can be done by a 30mm thick spall liner placed on the interior of the vehicle…
I’ll also add that the “dual-hardness” steel that the Australians are talking about isn’t actually anything new, it is, to put it bluntly, a modern take on face-hardened steel that’s been in use by many nations ever since its invention - namely, Germany.