Something something about “game balance” and tenderized dead horses…
I’m well aware of that website, as people have pointed out hundreds of times over the years, it’s not a valid source.
It’s a collection of basic information regarding hundreds of vehicles, a glorified wikipedia.
It also doesn’t cite sources of it’s own.
If you truly believe this, then there is little point in further discussion, because it indicates you have no knowledge regarding even the most basic things concerning this topic.
- CROWS
- Improvements to power generation and distribution.
- Underbody IED kit.
- Hull stiffners.
- Improvements to the engine, transmission and reiforcements to the suspension systems.
- Reinforced internal structural supports.
- (Improvements to) Auxiliary power unit.
- (Improvements to) Thermal management system.
- Improvements to battle management system.
- CITV.
- Upgraded diagnostics and digitization.
- Navigational equipment.
- ICWS.
- TUSK additions.
- etc.
- etc.
My previous comment has a link where this information can be viewed.
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Do you even play this damn game? Seriously, who the hell told you the M1 is resistant to any sabot in the game ANYWHERE?
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Im not gonna comb through the whole website looking for the information you say is there.
Time for me to defend the Abrams against misinfo…
1- TURMS has as little armor while being significantly slower. Speed is a massive advantage.
2- K. They’re still thermals.
3- M1 Abrams [the specific model] never used DU armor, this is well known.
4- Date of round is irrelevant. M829A2 is the best MBT round in the game.
5- Armor upgrades are modeled. M1A1 to M1A1HC/M1A2 has DU turret armor.
6- Correct. Volumetric it’d go to ~200mm, but still easily penned by MBTs.
7- Yes, in part due to peoples’ performance in it.
8- M1A2 fires the best MBT round in the game.
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Do you? Because my M1’s with 2700 kills total are sitting on a 70+ winrate with a 6-1 K/D ratio for a reason.
Anyways, here’s 804mm LoS penetration 152mm APFSDS at point blank range failing to consistently penetrate the UFP of an M1 Abrams, feel free to test this out yourself:
Anyways, here’s some interesting reads for you:
This one is concerning spall liners and not armour, but still gets the point across that numerous improvements weren’t carried out because of weight contraints.
Select any year you wish, here’s one from 2009.
Ctrl + F is your friend.
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Still just difficult to grind for no reason, being a tier 4 mod.
Already brought up a source from the US army disproving this.
Leo 2a7 DM53 as well as the Challenger 3 TD both have more pen than the M829A2 (652mm with DM53)
That is ONE upgrade.
Again disproven. The only round that can be considered better than what other countries have in game is M830A1 and not for anti-tank use, but its proxy-fuse capabilities.
Test this yourself. Aim about 9 inches higher than that guy did. You penetrate the tank and kill all crew or most and a breech.
Your source says that the M1A2 wont be protected by all of the armor upgrades. This “all” implies that some of them are still added to the tank. You see how this doesn’t really help your point?
"Survivability improvements include Frontal Armor and Turret Side Armor
upgrades. " Your source, by the way.
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Let it be known this source states that the armor is provided by the department of energy, which could possibly hint that it is DU, since the department of energy isn’t interested i tungsten and steel. Again, your source.
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ignore necrons, he’s had a hatred for the U.S Tech tree for 5+ years, nothing you show him is going to change his mind, he thinks the Abrams has never changed its armor in 30+ years.
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Sounds about right. At this point hes providing me with sources that prove my point. hes such a good helper.
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The first Abrams to use DU armor was M1A1 HC, having DU turret armor, which is represented in War Thunder. Which is what your Department of Energy source is talking about.
There wouldn’t be DU armor added to the hull until allegedly SEP3, which would be a reason why SEP3 weighs 2 - 4 tons more than M1A2SEP1 & 2.
DM53 is 2nd, you’ll notice that the M1A1+ tanks use L/44 guns, not L/55. L/55 increases the muzzle velocity of the rounds.
M829A2 is the best MBT round in the game which you proved by citing L/55 guns to compete against an L/44.
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Oh wow you won on a technicality. The leopard still pens more, your point is nullified and you’re grasping at straws.
Notice how that source doesn’t only state TURRET armor. It says frontal.
The gun of the Leopard 2A6+ performs better, the round M829A2 performs better.
There was never a technicality, I was exclusively talking about the rounds.
You made it about the gun; extended the goalpost.
And in those statements there is no mention of DU outside the turret.
Which was proven by countless people on the forums.
SEP2 and below use conventional composite for the hull, which is why the mass increase from M1A2 to SEP2 is at most a ton. Vs the increased turret armor of M1A1 to M1A1 HC being 4.X tons.
SEP2 allegedly has a different arrangement for improved hull protection, but that has not been proven, only ever claimed.
I would address only some point
This is what i alway complain about modification research. It should sit fairly across the board
To put it bluntly it just Gaijin way to make you spent money to ease your pain from grinding.
As Gaijin rely on declassified infomation. which in turn has its problem as infomation they need would still be “classified”. Thus we’re stuck to what we had which is sweden source which “could” be export M1A2 armor for all we know.
And as many people point out before. Sweden did request Abrams with DU armor from US. But Arms and export control act restricting Sweden from getting the DU
Gaijin didn’t add M829A3 along with SepV2 saying it wouldn’t be any different from M829A2 (even though most know that M829A3 has proper Anti ERA tech unlike M829A2)
People already made Bug report. Suggest Gaijin should model them as volumetric protection
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/hn6WHPVB7r3K
Most people agree to give First Abrams M833 since M774 was overperfrom and should be fix. Not to mention M735 still remain nerf.
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m829a2 also has anti era. its was designed to beat Kontact 5 the russians even admit this is possible.
m1 abrams should get M900 at this point theres no point even when theres a russia ntank with a round that lol pens just about every tank in the game. near its B.R
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Yes, the best the US was willing to export. Which is worse than the DU armor fielded on domestic tanks.
This is an estimation, not based on actual data.
This one shows that the information in that table is not official, and is just from a Armed Forces Journal International issue in February 1989. It also says:
"Judging from my experience with the U.S. Army, many commissioned and noncommissioned officers today do not know enough about what their antiarmor weapons can do, or what they cannot do. (This should not be surprising because U.S. weapon performance and armor protection levels are not openly disclosed.)…
In response to the need for more awareness of the subject, Training Circular 90-16, Antiarmor Operations on the Integrated Battlefield, was written to provide a single, classified source of information on the effects of recent advances in U.S. and Soviet weaponry and armor protection. While TC is directed toward commanders and staffs at battalion level and higher, it is the company commanders and platoon leaders who much also understand their weapons’ capabilities and supervise the training, deployment, and employment or their antiarmor systems…
TC 90-16 is a more precise source of data for planning training exercises against armored vehicles."
In addition to that, it also implies that the data that the higher ups give their lower-level commanders/platoon leaders vastly understate the effectiveness of the US vehicles and/or vastly overstate the effectiveness of Soviet vehicles:
"The way you and your unit fight the first battle of the next war will set the tempo for the way it fights the remainder of the war. In the worst case scenario, if threat vehicles move into your engagement area, and you engage them with little or no success, two things will happen. First, the enemy will gain confidence in his equipment and his ability to defeat you. Second, your confidence in your weapon systems, and you ability to defeat the threat, will decrease.
If, on the other hand, the threat vehicles move into your engagement area and your soldiers engage them with devastating success, the threat’s second echelon, observing the destruction, will lose confidence in their equipment and their leaders."
So in short, the table shows unofficial numbers that are not precise and likely vastly underestimate the capabilities of US tanks.
First, second, or third generation DU ring a bell? The terms are so numerous I thought you’d know about it.
You mean ricochets all APFSDS into the overly exposed turret ring to oneshot the M1?
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The main reason is the BR system, so all vehicles are matched against “near peers”, and not historical opponents.
So if something was historically dominant, then WT puts it at a higher BR than those opponents - same reason why WW2 heavy tanks don’t perform as they did “historically”
You’re looking at tests done by myself.
It clearly shows the UFP is resistant to even the absolute best APFSDS in the entire game, let alone the average APFSDS round at 10.3.
Because we know HAP-3 was implemented, which improves multi-hit durability.
But since armour fatigue isn’t modelled in War Thunder, it’s not relevant to the game.
Please read the sources correctly and don’t take stuff out of context as a low quality ‘Gotcha’ attempt.
Full qoutes are as follows: ‘‘This program upgrades M1/M1A1 tanks to the M1A2 System Enhancement Package (SEP) configuration. Therefore, for each M1A2 SEP produced, there will be a corresponding decrease in the Army’s M1/M1A1 inventory. […] The M1A2 SEP has improved frontal and side armor for enhanced crew survivability.’’
Armour improvements are relative to the M1/M1A1 vehicles.
No kidding.
All M1’s from the M1A1 HA onwards feature DU armour, and as I’ve already stated this is also represented in-game.
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