This doesn’t really matter when a specific ship has multiple of these that can impact on more or less the same spot. It doesn’t matter what kind of armor you have multiple bomb hits to the same area will cause a hole.
Nah. unrepairable breech affected by presence of armor on the spot. If not penetrated, nothing happend.
And Termit is ‘HEAT’ round, not just 'HE’round. Quite reduction in its explosion.
I think there are two aspects to the whole AShM discussion:
1. General ability of AShM to damage modern BBs
That is indeed very very limited apart from super heavy soviet missile (or the nuclear tiped ones which are irrelevant).
Until the era of DDGs with large amount of VLS cells the number of AShMs on missile ships is very limited the standard 8 Harpoons might not even reliably sink BB not to mention multiple of them.
We can already see that even multiple hits by HE non HEAT warheads of moderate size isn´t enough to sink BB as long as it doesn´t hit bellow waterline thus creating large unrepairable breaches. Here is video I did during AA testing of BBs against jet attackers Watch Battleship AA test | Streamable you can see results of 1000lb bombs hitting the ship and while there is indeed some hullsection destoyed it didn´t result in destruction or unrepairable breach.
2. Gameplay between missile ships and BBs
The fact that BBs can soak up the damage in most cases doesn´t mean that the gameplay of fighting against them would be fun and should happen on regular basis. Not to mention that even playing the missile ships against BBs wouldn´t be much fun either so I don´t think that it would be good idea of these ships regullary facing each other.
Of course if you look at it with current BR and objectives it doesn´t work but what if the DD and BB BRs went like this:
DDs:
Clemsons (1.0) → Farragut (2.7) → Fletcher (3.7) → Gearing (5.0) → Spruance (9.3) → Arleigh Burke (12.7)
BBs:
North Dakota (2.0) → Florida (2.7) → Wyoming (3.0) → Texas (3.7) → Nevada (4.3) → Mississippi (5.0) → Colorado (5.3) → South Dakota (1920) (5.7) → North Carolina (6.3) → Iowa (6.7) → Montana (7.3) → Iowa (1986) (11.7)This is just rough layout to ilustrate the point
I don´t see any other way how to properly deconpress NF. But of course as I elaborated later this isn´t possible with current objectives and gameplay design. ↓↓
Yes some healthy gameplay integration is good but currently it aint it. And what you are describing are scenarios where the respective players are blind or sit in crappy WW1 DD with no secondaries and turrets too slow to track you properly - not something I would consider reliable and fun for the other side (in case of the old DDs)
I can also show many many battles where modern DDs gets into the boat area and absolutely stomps on the poor PT boats.
Not to mention the scenarios where PT boats cap the 2 caps and wins the game with the players in larger ships unable to do anything about it. For multiple reasons:
- Don´t have float plane
- Enemy US cruiser is too close to cap so float plane is useless
- Don´t have PT boat because they already used it or don´t have acces to them (France)
Yes coastal have place in battles with blue water ships and I don´t think that separating them into separate gamemodes is good idea but also the PTs should have the ability to solely decide the result of the game.
I also would like to see how you would go about the decompression because I really have no idea how that would/could work.
I would say it is more complex than that. For example I agree that for DDs the 15km is a bit too high (or at least with current accuracy) but I dissagree that that is case for cruisers apart from the very very early one (or special cases like Atlanta), for these the 10 km mark just results in shooting gallery. For later cruisers the 15 km is perfectly viable.
As for BBs it is more complex because the early BBs indeed need closer ranges (15km max) because most of them don´t have enough pen to harm each other at even at that range but with more modern ones like the Hood, Mutsu, Mississippi, Scharnhorst the 15km range is way way too close and this will only get worse for more modern BBs which simply weren´t designed to fight each other at 15km range (apart the german ones) and the gameoplay will devolve into game who can push the button faster and have better RNG for hitting the ammo.
But again as I said you are partly correct since as I pointed out this map enlargement is unfeasible with current objectives and therefor I say that objectives need complete revamp ↓↓
I already somewhere said that current maps are too small and too large at the same time. They are too small because in most cases in anything bigger then DD you don´t have enough space to manuver properly to avoid enemy fire, and so on. But on other hand they are too large because there is in many cases virtually no way how to properly react and respond to the enemy presense on A point when you are on the C point.
I will say again and again the cap points simply don´t work for anything outside of boats and frigates and maybe DDs.
But even the fact that the waiting time are heavily dependent on the time zones is indication that the number of players isn´t healthy. The low tier RB is basically death and the higher tiers are only slightly better. And AB isn´t in great state number wise either.
Yes NF will always have lower player count but you can´t with straight face tell me that NF have enough players when there are almoast always at least handful of gaijin bots in each battle.
Yes these rants bare no relevance what so ever but even players who play NF frequently say that while the actual in moment is solid the map design, balance and objectives aren´t that great. Spawn to spawn shooting, island camping and extremly stale objective surely doesn´t help.
EC isn´t an answear and won´t solve any of the larger issues but some kind of interactive AI PvE elements like in air RB or something from the submarine event would greatly help. Just look at the reactions to that one - even the ones not playing NF liked it and that was littelary the simplest implementation of PvE - convoy gamemode ever.
No. Absolutely not.
This is one of those “good idea fairy” concepts that one should realize will absolutely not work halfway through having the idea in the first place.
I can’t agree with the rest either. The coastal/floatplane use in bluewater BRs is one of my favourite gameplay elements, it works very well. Cap points are fine and don’t need any changes; three-cap is easily my preference among the three normal modes and also EC.
BRs around where coastal/bluewater meet are also mostly fine (certainly no issues as large as people like to claim). I’ve been playing a fair bit of 2.x lately and it’s quite fun.
15km is definitely a bit too far, even for BBs, and with cruisers it’s a lot of tedium as one tries to close to a more reasonable distance. Even 10km is pushing it for cruisers, and for DDs I really don’t want to be further than around 7km-ish, but ideally under 5km.
2 Likes
feels good to me, I guess it is a matter of preference
even starter DDs can counter pt boats but it takes bit of aiming. Thats where frigates and gun boats come into play, they fiill the gap, by being lighter than a destroyer but with decent RoF and AA. I agree they arent sometimes properly balanced but generally it feels alright.
sure, seen that a lot but usually it happens due to low BR and skill level of coastal players. I see dozens of players using starter boats just to cap and die, not even able to hit anything with torpedo at close range nor use terrain to their advantage.
This is the deck building aspect. If one spends some time, both grinding better vessels, and learning maps and tactics, caps on maps like north port or volcano island can be easily turned into destroyer graveyards.
welp, we can thank our teams for rarely spawning coastals. I had plenty of battles where I got a nice streak of kills with no death only to realise that I will lose or I need to risk J out because none of my teammates switched to pt boat with 10 deaths total on my team. I don’t mind it really since why bother with what you cannot control but I wouldnt say it is game problem.
on 15km with proper manouvering even slower ships can avoid majority of shots, so it is pointless. south kvarken is probably the worst offender, not only too large, but also with no room for coastal/bluewater interaction.
I don’t mind that at all, maps like african gulf have this spice of prioritizing targets and not drawing attention to yourself. Kill fast-stay low tactics.
RB is dead pretty much indeed, coastal especially since they dont serve their purpose. AB has decent community tho.
I do get frequently get battles with no bots or minimal amounts. But even with regular ~30-40% amount I dont mind it. As said I dont expect much players to join since navy isnt a cup of tea for everybody. Bots serve their role as addtional targets and I never get the feel that Im playing a dying mode. Quite opposite I feel like recently amount of players only increases.
I feel like staleness and camping are restricted mostly to RB, where Ive seen entire team sitting in place shooting each other. AB doesn’t allow that really. When it comes to additional AI targets… sure? but not in the ticket draining way.
wait what? there is no way 4.0-4.7 destroyers wiill have any semblence of balanced gameplay against 6.3-6.7 BBs. I didn’t pay attention to numbers since I saw it is rough layout, but this is utterly ridiculous
2 Likes
I play RB for Naval and don’t have any particular playercount/matchmaking issues. :P
I created my image on a small amount of matches I played (last one like a year ago) and from people I know who play RB and were regularly complaining about it. So I likely am mistaken then :)
1 Like
I disagree. Floatplanes maybe but coastal is an absolute no for me. The difference in performance and design philosophy is simply too great, and maps like three-cap perfectly illustrate it. While a PT boat can maneuver around the small islands and cap the points, any regular sized ship past a destroyer cannot do that. Not to mention, it can’t do that in a way that actually allows the battle to take place; I’ve tried it before in a heavy cruiser, the turns are so tight you have to be constantly reversing and doing essentially the naval equivalent of a three-point turn. And doing that means you can’t be focusing on shooting at targets (or being the target and shooting back) because you have to navigate a maze.
Additionally, the separation of naval trees into coastal and bluewater implies you can use one and ignore the other, and to a point this is true. But especially in early bluewater you NEED a coastal ship to contest the three-cap cap points in a somewhat effective manner. And while, yes, you can use the rank 1 reserve boat, the fact that you have to use it at all in a mode that limits you to only three spawns is, in my opinion, completely stupid.
As for floatplanes, they were mostly used for recon in real life. Which is kind of ignored by having to use them to cap points. In my opinion if you have a floatplane at reasonably high altitude and circling the battle it could give you a targeting speed buff. Not an accuracy buff, but maybe it could tell you where enemy ships are (to a point) and allow you easier shot correction. It would also make enemy floatplanes a “HVT” as you need to kill them before their buffs cause their home ship to kill you. But relegating floatplanes to glorified PT boat cap-point machines is just… incredibly lame.
I don’t play around that BR very much but when I have it has mostly been the destroyers bullying the coastal ships, even if they get torpedoed there’s just always another destroyer. If that’s fun for you, sure, I just don’t get it I guess.
15km may be far but also it is less than half the effective range of most big gun ships, especially the WW2 ones. In my experience, the tedium of missing is offset by the feeling when you finally get the range dialed in and get a good hit. And, naval battles in real life always started at range and made the two fleets close. Maybe not maximum range of battleships because any hit at that range is practically impossible, but 10km is absolutely within regular battle ranges. Sub-7km was limited to low-visibility night battles such as the ones in the Solomon Islands, and while yeah those may be fun to recreate, it doesn’t mean every battle should be like that. Getting close range for increased accuracy should be something that comes with risk and reward, yes you get easier shots but it also works against you. In the current game, short range is just “thing that happens.” As an example, in most naval maps, you can torpedo the enemy spawn from your spawn with any medium range (10km) torpedo. That is absolutely unacceptable, as while it is somewhat accurate it does not really reward good torpedo gameplay - most people just spawn and launch the torpedoes in the general direction of the enemy instead of properly trying to conduct a torpedo attack.
As an aside, they should add rain squalls and moving cover so destroyers can sneak around, but the thing with WW2 era ships is that most (if not all) get some sort of fire control radar. Which kind of takes the hard part out of hitting the target (somewhat) and can allow longer ranges, much like they did IRL. If you want shorter ranges, you should have to close to that distance, but as-is the game doesn’t give you an option on the open ocean maps aside from just hoping you’re not seen, which, yeah accurate, but still.
Sure they can, I do this in cruisers all the time. Actually having terrain to have to manoeuvre around is far more fun and interesting than just sailing in a straight line in open ocean. I’ve saved/won plenty of matches by taking a large ship into a “crowded islands” cap.
You can, and they’re usually pretty much the ideal anyway. What you want for a coastal is speed, small size, speed, ideally torpedoes, and speed. The boats which fit this best are usually extremely early in the tree.
…how often do you actually use up all three spawns?
This is fairly rare. We’re talking under-armed reserve destroyers and brand new players, which also spawn quite far from the boats. In the vast majority of matches, they barely interact.
I personally can attest to trying to navigate crowded islands like African Gulf as… Not very fun. Hell, the caps are sometimes as big across as my destroyer is long so any kind of speed results on me coming in one side and going out the other side. If you like naval parking simulator, good for you. I prefer not having to pay attention to how many degrees I need to turn to squeeze around the next corner.
Rank 1 reserve boats tend to be really sad I’m not going to lie. A torpedo isn’t going to help you if literally anything with a bofors shows up (and that’s most PTs at 3.3 range). Sure they’re ok in a pinch but I’d much rather use something that isn’t a motorboat with a 7.7 mg in a turret
3 spawns? I use them… Every time I play destroyers, every time I play cruisers, every time I don’t spend the entire game flattening the enemy team, every time I need to change vehicles to flank, every time the battle drags on for too long, every time my team is losing… I’d say that I use all 3 spawns more often than not, and I’ve wished for the ability to spawn more many many times
I can say from personal experience a 3.3 destroyer wipes the floor with any PT boat that isn’t a SKR or JDS Ayanami. A single 12cm HE round can remove a PT from existence. Whenever I play coastal around there it’s always trying to avoid getting in view of the destroyers and immediately dying when they do find me.
Sure you can, but that doesn’t mean its fun or entertaining or like playable. It’s not even like the semi crowded islands ones, try taking a long and unwieldy ship into the A cap on Norway. It’s not easy, and it’s not fun.
You very selectively omitted the rest of my point about how “you are required to use a coastal boat despite coastal and bluewater using different trees.” Yes you can use a rank 1 reserve boat, but they also kind of suck, and for someone who is playing naval for bluewater, having to use a reserve coastal ship to barely be competitive because the maps are bad is not the most entertaining experience.
Like all the time actually, because surprisingly when you are shot at you can die
I don’t know what under-armed destroyers you’re talking about but any destroyer is over-armed when it comes to dealing with PT boats. A 4-inch cannon can one shot a PT boat, provided it hits. And destroyers normally carry more than one. And last I checked, despite spawning quite far away, something in the map kind of pushes them towards each other and they have to interact to have a chance at winning.