US Helicopters

[S-200VE_Vega]

@quartas121

No, I mean people already just sit still in game, it’s called sniping

yeah no sht but if the objective needs to move they can move. now imagine if you couldnt move or you would just get killed with ease. or if the ah64d shoots all of his missiles also against non moving targets after rearming, probably half hitting the people who are “sniping”.
death.

[quartas121]

There is also APS, and chaff smoke grenades

[S-200VE_Vega]

yes and before those come 114L has no place ingame. so right now, no place ingame.

[quartas121]

Right now we have APS, but I think chaff smoke will be added at the same time as 114L

[S-200VE_Vega]

@quartas121

Right now we have APS

it isnt common enough. we need the leopards, abrams and others to get it too.

[Morvran]

@iMatty01

This is something Gaijin talked about when they added the Brimstone a couple of months ago: the Brimstone has a mmW guidance on it,and without counters in the game imagine a Tornado GR4 or an EFA wreaking havoc with a dozen of them.

There were so many issues with that response, its actually physically painful. But the underlying issue is the fact that smoke wouldnt work at all (though it rarely does vs IOG equipped AGMs anyway) but there are smoke systems that are designed to block radar seekers and it wouldnt be the first time that gaijin redesigned a weapon system for the sake of balance, it would be simply enough to make it so that smoke blocked MMW seekers.

Its just frustrating both for the Apache with AGM-114L and that it prevents them from any sort of FnF and Brimstone on the Tornado and EFT that it has to be so significantly nerfed and yet no one else is.

[S-200VE_Vega]

@Morvran

it would be simply enough to make it so that smoke blocked MMW seekers.

no we need aps too. tankers cant be expected to be able to detect the launch that happens from behind cover at a random time during the battle. smoke is only a last resort incase they somehow have noticed it like friendly spaa voicing it out which would be rare.

[Morvran]

@Nike Ajax

no we need aps too. tankers cant be expected to be able to detect the launch that happens from behind cover at a random time during the battle. smoke is only a last resort incase they somehow have noticed it like friendly spaa voicing it out which would be rare.

[Insert any AGM here]

Why is defending against a LOBL AGM-114L or Brimstone any different to defending against a KH-38, Spike, etc?

[S-200VE_Vega]

@Morvran

[Insert any AGM here]

none of them will be as bad as the 16 radar guided fnf hellfires that can be constantly rearmed and shot again with spaa being able to do nothing about it. we should have many more tanks with aps fitted on top tier already. just because we already have some agm offenders doesnt mean we need to f*ck the balance way more and make life even harder for whole teams of tankers

@Morvran

Why is defending against a LOBL AGM-114L or Brimstone any different to defending against a KH-38, Spike, etc?

spikes

1. because the ah64d can fire them from behind cover which is a major thing
2. spikes are easily disrupted by trees which makes them way less reliable in many maps
3. cant even lock tanks that are in forests properly
   kh38
4. you cant launch 16 of them against hostiles at the same time using radar
5. you cant just hover down on helipad and rearm in seconds and fire 16 missiles again at the whole enemy team, you have to go and land which takes a bunch of time
   both, of which are very significant factors.

[quartas121]

@Nike Ajax

abrams

Leopard already best tanks in game by far, Abrams could use it though

[Morvran]

Again, how is that any different to a Israeli AH-60 spamming off 16x Spikes?

or a Su-34/Rafale firing off 6x KH-38s or AASM from 20km?

Or a Tiger firing off PARS?

etc etc etc

Assuming smoke was effective against AGM-114L or Brimstones (ignoring the quantity advantage of Brimstone and assuming another way to balance that advantage was found) what is so different about them if you were required to visually acquire the target still just like you do with Spike. As we have seen with Brimstones, they are happy to limit a weapon system to a single mode of operation. Just because it could get MMW doesnt mean it would have to have its “mode 3” LOAL mode and could instead still be limited to “Mode 1&2” which is the SAL mode and SAL+MMW mode for LOBL.

So again. What is different about an Apache firing what would essentially be an IR guided Hellfire at this point to an AH-60 firing Spikes?

[Armen_Lozone]

I mean the US did integrate em. Maybe there is hope for them after all

[Zyranovos]

Pretty much the entire tech lines are, minus the post 1991 vehicles.

[Morvran]

@Nike Ajax

because the ah64d can fire them from behind cover which is a major thing

So dont model this then. Wouldnt be the first time they ommitted full capabilies of a weapon system. Paveway IVs just had Data-Link denied for balancing reasons.

@Nike Ajax

• spikes are easily disrupted by trees which makes them way less reliable in many maps
• cant even lock tanks that are in forests properly
  kh38

I dont see why this would suddenly change with MMW, I doubt they would model it much differently
¬

@Nike Ajax

you cant launch 16 of them against hostiles at the same time using radar

Again, why model this? Require LOBL, you can still find targets with the radar but you have to fire them off one at a time. No different to anyone else

@Nike Ajax

you cant just hover down on helipad and rearm in seconds and fire 16 missiles again at the whole enemy team, you have to go and land which takes a bunch of time
both, of which are very significant factors.

Again, so dont model LOBL and again, I’ve seen Spike launchers doing this.

[quartas121]

We should get those anduril defence mini cruise missiles for the Apache

[Morvran]

So you are saying it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to add MMW Hellfire without adding its FULL capabilities?

Then where is MMW on the Brimstone? Where Man-in-the-loop guidance for the AJ168? Where is Datalink for the Paveway IV? etc etc etc

THERE IS NOTHING STOPPING THEM JUST OMITTING SOME OF THE CAPABILITIES

Just make them LOBL and everything you’ve said is eliminated. Just because MMW seekers can be fired in LOAL doesnt mean they HAVE to be added with LOAL modes. They can also ALL be used in LOBL modes.

[Morvran]

@Nike Ajax

and like i said, even if we have some offenders that are less worse it does not mean we should add way worse offenders to the game that will f*ck up the balance even more. good thing gaijin agrees with me on that.
until yall can see the reality, nothing will change. like i said, wait for most top tier tanks to get APS and to get chaff smoke, then you might see the 114L come. there is no way to get it earlier than that.

Then delete all FnF AGMs for all Helis and nerf all Air launched AGMs to SAL only then. Its stupid they nerf some nations but not others

[S-200VE_Vega]

@Morvran

So you are saying it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to add MMW Hellfire without adding its FULL capabilities?

they dont want to do it probably because when they add 114L they want it to be full capability on launch instead of having to change the capabilities after the launch which they unfortunately have to do sometimes.

@Morvran

Just make them LOBL and everything you’ve said is eliminated. Just because MMW seekers can be fired in LOAL doesnt mean they HAVE to be added with LOAL modes. They can also ALL be used in LOBL modes.

which will make them worse offenders than the cancer fire and forget missiles we already have considering they will hit you despite being in a forest or driving through trees that would typically have a chance of losing a lock or when you smoke they will get you anyway.
nah. waiting for aps. no reason to add worse offenders ingame. if you were to delete current fnf’s from helis people would get pissed after grinding all the time, so the second best thing we can do is keep things as they are and not add more cancer to the apache.
good thing they werent dumb enough to add fnf brimstones

@Morvran

Its stupid they nerf some nations but not others

unfortunate but better than ah64d being able to ruin everything for tankers even harder than current missile platforms

[Morvran]

@Nike Ajax

they dont want to do it probably because when they add 114L they want it to be full capability on launch instead of having to change the capabilities after the launch which they unfortunately have to do sometimes.

Then that is just stupid and not something they’ve done for any other weapon system.

@Nike Ajax

which will make them worse offenders than the cancer fire and forget missiles we already have considering they will hit you despite being in a forest or driving through trees that would typically have a chance of losing a lock or when you smoke they will get you anyway.

I’ve never had any issue with any AGM for doing this anyway. So… I dont see the issue.

@Nike Ajax

nah. waiting for aps. no reason to add worse offenders ingame. if you were to delete current fnf’s from helis people would get pissed after grinding all the time, so the second best thing we can do is keep things as they are and not add more cancer to the apache.

APS wouldnt be this super defence as there would be nothing stopping you from just firing 5 at a target.

@Nike Ajax

good thing they werent dumb enough to add fnf brimstones

It was fricking stupid that they artificially nerfed their performance (they have less range than they should), then removed FnF and then denied giving Brimstone 2s to either for the GR4 or EFT for at least half decent SAL only AGMs.

But they wont remove IOG from the KH-38 or AASM because that would be unfair.

@Nike Ajax

unfortunate but better than ah64d being able to ruin everything for tankers even harder than current missile platforms

Then remove Spikes. Its stupid that some nations get access to FnF AGMs for their Helis but not all.

[S-200VE_Vega]

@Morvran

Then that is just stupid and not something they’ve done for any other weapon system.

Nike Ajax:

aint other weapon systems as bad offenders as the 114L would be i can just drive past a tree and the spike operator will get pissed off

[quote=“Morvran_, post:74, topic:208152”]
I’ve never had any issue with any AGM for doing this anyway. So… I dont see the issue.

@Morvran

APS wouldnt be this super defence as there would be nothing stopping you from just firing 5 at a target.

Nike Ajax:

it would be because now you have to spend 5 of your missiles at a target so your total of kills will be 3 instead of 16 in best case scenario

@Morvran

It was fricking stupid

youre free to have your own opinion.

@Morvran

Then remove Spikes. Its stupid that some nations get access to FnF AGMs for their Helis but not all.

i dont think they feel like pissing off their customers who had a hard helicopter grind. on the other hand 114L was not promised for the ah64d so the people who grinded for it knew it was going to be sal only. i know this because i personally asked gaijin on the old forum about it years ago before grinding the 64D.