The 2S38 being way too overpowered at 9.7 to 10.3 Matches and needed to be moved up a BR

I didn’t say it was. Arcade and Realistic modes are different. Mixing features degrades both modes.

All vehicles do. Warthunder isn’t a simulator after all.

The tools are available and effective. The player’s lack of use is their own problem. Especially when “arcadey mouse aim and arcadey 3rd person camera” make flying planes soo easy. Should be easy to shoot down another plane with one. Combined arms solution for a combined arms problem.

That is their own problem. Warthunder is very much a game of learning to adapt and overcome obstacles sich as facing stronger vehicles, lack of manuverable battlespace, and criminally short average engagement ranges, among other things.

Noone is ever going to stop complaining about things they don’t like. Some people think it shouldn’t have planes even though the game is combined arms. They are going to a pizza shop for a steak. No matter what you do as the pizza shop owner you can’t give them a proper steak dinner.

Gaijin has ignored these cries, and I’m pretty confident they always will. If I remember correctly, they said the game was staying combined arms and that TO wasn’t going to happen.

Unrealistic behavior or not, the range ring style sights would help in RB because you’d have leading/distance references.

While some of your proposed changes would make sense, some do not. I will leave it there. I believe there are quite a few changes that could be made before lead indicators should be added to RB.

The difference between 2nd and 3rd gen is literally just that 3rd gen have a slightly higher brightness


It was because gaijin was lazy so they gave it an autoloader with a ready rack of 20 which gave it slightly better survivability but the new change means it can fire off all 148 rounds but the autoloader is significantly easier to hit so its honestly worse unless you just wanna kill CAS or suck at aiming so much that 20 rounds isnt enough

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Your word choice suggests quite strongly you speak of any remotely arcade features as if they poison realistic mode. Hence my comparison.

And vehicles benefit unequally from this. To simply have these traits grandfathered in and no compensation for the AA stacks things against the AA.

It requires dozens upon dozens of matches with each cannon type to so much as begin to learn the lead for a gun in anti-air use. It is also fully dependent on the planes in each match being idiots flying right at your AA. Oh, and you’re supposed to not be closed in on by tanks while you try and fail to hit planes as you learn.

And while normally I agree with you, in this case “their own problem” has historically had nasty consequences on this game mode and more importantly on other game modes. They whine, ordinance gets nerfed, Air RB and Air Sim pay the price, the whiners then find something new to whine about and it repeats.

Yes, my point is not to stop their whining directly, but rather to give them all the tools to help themselves, with a skill floor actually within reach to such folk.

As I once said in prior threads on this subject: “Punt the ball into the whiners’ court, and let them decide if they will hit it back, throw a fit saying hitting it back is too hard, or leave the game entirely.” Another comparison I used was: “You can drag the horse to water, then shove its snout into the water to make it drink. If it still chooses not to drink, and it dies of thirst, its own fault.”

Implementing my proposed (re)buffs to SPAAG would effectively make any further complaints from such folk entirely on them, and no longer able to harm the rest of the game.

If you think lead markers are too arcadey, you can always turn them off on your end, yes?

Yes, but until the counters to CAS are so intentionally easy to use that any would-be whiners have no ground left to stand on confidently, the spectre of this old debate, and the threat of continued nerfing of ordinance to placate such folk remains.

I want that threat vanquished for good. Force-feeding the counters to all users so they become unable to justifiably complain is my answer. It extinguishes the common complaints of “SPAAG are useless” and “what, you expect me to research an entire other tech tree to counter PLANES in the GROUND BATTLES mode?!” Now, anyone thinking to say either no longer can use those arguments.

Instead, they would be stuck with just one: “But I don’t want to use SPAAG or Aircraft, I want to play Tanks.” The only answer to this is “L2P” and always will be.

I have seen examples of such on WT Live, and while they look like they might help, wouldn’t different plane sizes make estimating ranges rather difficult?

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I understand where you are coming from, but I don’t like the idea of arcade features being blended into realistic. It makes the most sense (to me) to keep the modes as unique to each other as possible. I have no qualms about arcade and it’s features as I enjoy it from time to time, but that is what makes each game mode feel unique.

I agree, but these SPAA weren’t frontline fighters along side tanks like they are in this game. A fair compensation in my eyes would be increasing round velocity to make leading easier and adding actual AA sights.

Yes, it takes time and isn’t easy. Much like all the other aspects of RB. These shots can happen without planes flying directly to you as attacks runs must be lined up. I usually perfer to take my SPAA shots from the side when the plane is holding it’s attack angle. But I am also not afraid to move out of the spawn to make those kills.

I think they are an Arcade feature and I play Realistic to avoid them, just like spot indicators and drop/pen indicators. Turning them off on my end doesn’t do anything for me when all of a sudden every gun SPAA becomes fuax radar guided against my planes.

A nobel quest, but one that is a fruitless endeavor. There will always be a complaint. Always, just like how TO people say a P-51 (guns only) can kill medium and heavy tanks if they were a first spawn to combat CAS aircraft. Everything Gaijin does to imrpove the game is a problem in someone’s eyes and they will always complain.

They can play tanks right now, but the problem is they can’t come to terms that this is a combined arms game and that they must accept the consequences of not playing the entire game. Expecting a steak from a pizza shop.

It could, but the key part (to me) is it has reference points for leading and rangefinding whereas the current sights have no such thing. You are just wiffing rounds i to the air with no real references to adjust with. Another solid change would be making rangefinding a bit faster and longer ranged for SPAA so they can use the rangefinder mechanic to get a range and then adjust sights to make it a bit easier too. SPAA don’t have all the tools to operate as efficiently as they could yet, and sights and rangefinding from crews cpuld make a massive difference.

The helis they face exceed the range of their proximity rounds.
And jets exceed their range as well.

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i am slowly playing through the USSR tree but 7.7 britain is what I enjoy and is the br most of my friends have, and most vehicles I haven’t played since spading them, nor are your stats much better comparing nation winrates, you only play china effectively and that’s dominated by SPAA, the thing where you avoid direct confrontation and rely on the game to tell you where to shoot, your opinion is far more valueless as most of your gameplay hours isn’t even aiming at another tank

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What the hell is this guy talking about…

It can reach 3km that’s enough.

i looked at your player card, youre as mediocre as the rest of us

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Normally I tend to be somewhat hostile, or at least suspicious, of requests for more arcadey features in a mode named “Realistic.”

But as I and Zendikar already said, this is more compensation for a long-since grandfathered-in much more arcadey feature that is going nowhere (plane mouse aim and 3rd person cam).

The “uniqueness” in this instance is actively harmful to the rest of the playerbase at large, all for what? To preserve some “skill” in SPAAG? I can only think of the comparison to college degrees in America - sold like a commodity, but priced like a luxury. SPAAG are talked about endlessly how necessary they are, yet the near-vertical cliff one must scale to learn them is frankly too much.

So you would artificially increase velocity to levels the guns wouldn’t be physically capable of achieving without breaking, but you’d refuse the AAs getting an aim assist? Isn’t that splitting hairs?

And we have waited patiently for the average player to finally learn to use them right. They simply won’t. I’m tired of such folk being enabled to jump on here, rant about something killing them being “OP,” and then actually getting said thing they despise neutered repeatedly.

Some people will indeed always complain. The point is to remove any excuses they have left to complain with other than “but I am not interested in playing X, I want to play Y instead!” which cannot under any means be used to continue neutering CAS weaponry. Those folk would have all the tools they need to help themselves, and then they get to decide if they want to stay useless and keep complaining or do something about it.

It starves the “TO movement” of new recruits, and eventually the biggest die-hards for it will get tired and churn out of the playerbase for good.

My opinion is that while they could help RB, Sim would benefit more as planes need to fly closer to the ground to ID things, bringing them into AA range much more often.

If planes get partly automated flying controls so they can do impossible maneuvers without risk of stalling, then why can’t AA get aiming assists?

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That is what realistic mode is about. It isn’t a hand held mode and is extremely unforgiving. Those early SPAA get hit pretty hard but are not at all unusable. It isn’t any worse than trying to be newer with ground and jumping in to RB. You’re going to get dusted because you lack experience, and SPAA is no exception. RB isn’t exactly the starter difficulty (or popular difficulty) in the game and is for more of the “less arcady” crowd.

Increasing velocity will make it easier to make hits without having to add features from another game type. I’d rather see an ahistorical change to ammo than to see arcade features come in for one vehicle class of vehicle and not for all of them.

Where is this shown? By these forums? Surely not because the players residing in these forums are not anywhere near the average player.

They have the tools, choosing not to use them is their own problem.

The TO movement is irellevant because Gaijin had already stated they are staying combined arms. They, like any other game dev, know what they want their game to be and I don’t think they care much to change the core premise of it over a couple people coming to their game and expecting different gameplay than offered.

They do get aiming assists, in Arcade. Realistic isn’t the place for those assists. I cannot say this enough apparently, but Arcade is the mode with visual aim assists and Realistic is the mode without visual aiming asissts. Not even vehicle lock applies for target following. This was an intentional design choice to make the modes unique for different types of players that do or don’t want those assists. Mixing them degrades quality of gameplay for those involved.

It’s cool that you are trying to ruin the argument against TO or CAS haters or whatever, but ruining the integrity of the game to do so is worse than seeing nerfs to aircraft weaponry. I’d rather have a weak ass bomb or rocket instead of having SPAA that can laser me because people aren’t willing to get better in the mode known for the skill needed to be successful.

Do tell of these “impossible maneuvers” that you keep mentioning. Full real controls give much greater control over the aircraft and enable much more to be done with an airframe than the severely limited instructor. It isn’t even good at flying a fair number of planes. Using the BTD-1 lately has been terrible because it cannot level the aircraft for level flight without manual inputs.

Lvkv 42, ZSU-57-2 would like to speak.

Just because you may be a bad shot with them doesn’t mean everyone is. I have seen quite a few people knock planes out of the sky with the ZSU-57-2. I also believe someone else covered the Lvkv already, so no need to go there again.

the zsu 57 is by no means an effective spaag, so you shouldnt assume that he is a bad with it, you just occasionally get kills with them, but specially at those tiers it is a bad at air defense, something like bkan is objectively a better at that role, the lvkv is mostly fine at that br, worse thing about it is the ammo count which is really low.

He doesn’t understand that you can be pro ‘insert russian tank here’ being OP, while still not spreading ‘Russian Propaganda’.
@AlvisWisla They aren’t saying that the 2S38 is good, but they’re saying that it’s TOO good in-game, and needs to be put at a higher BR. You are clearly disregarding everything that makes the 2S38 superior to the HSTV-L anyways.
True Russian propaganda would be that the 2S38 is underperforming and needs a buff, as either in the form of a lower BR, or better actual performance, without showing any evidence to support that performance buff.

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To even imply the 2S38 is superior to the HSTV-L would be disregarding a myriad of advantages that the HSTV-L has in-game. It is unfathomably superior as a tank killing platform, and far more survivable, with literally unspeakably better gun handling.

The 2S38 is not “TOO good” nor should it be put at a higher BR. It’s smack dab average at 10.0, and considerably worse than the Swedish Strf9040 BILL and Lvkv9040C which are at the same BR.

So sick of this utterly WRONG implication. The 2S38’s stats are some of the worst at 10.0, and it’s not because it’s premium. It’s because it has absolutely no survivability (even the “unmanned turret” has an ammo rack inside of it to the right which will OHKO it, and it’s only got -5 degrees of gun depression, literally built to negate the advantage, unlike the HSTV-L, which is actually unmanned after it loses 1 turret crew).


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i fully agree especially once they update it so the ammo gets like 190 shots or whatever people said the dev server updates give it. So the hstvl has shit thermals, 1.5sec ROF for 21 darts, weak ass darts for something a whole BR above the 2s38. Is it faster, yes. Is the dart “better,” “yes.” Does that work out to gameplay? No not really. If the hstvl had the dart it’s supposed to get it would make sense. As it stands though, there’s no reason the 2s38 should be so low, or the hstvl and other similar vehicles be br’d so high.

2s38 genuinely gets special treatment.

Other than no Gen two thermals, 0.5s reload, and no APHE, the HSTV-L is generally better against MBTs and slightly worse against IFVs. The HSTV-L, however, is still a lot worse against helicopters, jets, and drones. If it were not for the 2S38 having a (now) limitless first-stage ammo rack, 0.5s reload, IRS, and proxy HE, I could see it being 10.0, maybe 10.3. But the fact that it’s a good SPAA at 10.0 should warrant a BR increase similar to the anti-tank effectiveness of HSTV-L (that is good at 11.3, but terrible at 11.7). I can see the 2S38 being 10.7 (or maybe even 11.0 after the limitless first-stage ammo is implemented), and the HSTV-L to 11.7, with the addition of proxy HE and a better dart. The HSTV-L suffers against spall liners, just as much as any auto-cannon does, and the 1.5s reload for a mediocre shell does not help it at all.

The only reason why I think the Lvkv 9040C is worse than the 2S38, at the moment, is that it has terrible gun elevation, and the 40mm proxy / APFDS is not nearly as good as the 57mm. I can see the BILL going to 10.3, but even that has issues, such as the fact that its stabilizer turns off at around 30km/h, and it cannot use its launcher once its commander is out.

Ammo racking the HSTV-L is still possible in a hull-down position due to how small the turret is, although you are correct that the HSTV-L is superior in general survivability.

image
Front-aspect shots usually are 50% chance at OHK, the UFP sometimes ricochets shots too.
The ammo rack is place such that shots around the sides of the ‘red box’ around the ammo rack would usually not do anything, as no spalling would occur. Same with the top of the engine. The damage model will change for the 2S38, so it will probably be even less survivable.

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No? Do you even play 10.0? I literally one-shot them every time.
50%? FIFTY PERCENT? You’re lying out of your teeth.

Not sure which shells you’re shooting. 105mm DM23 or XM578E1 don’t do much.