This is why I said it is dependant on your definition of what a stall is.
There are several definitions and many types of stall which occur at different stages in flight.
You need to be specific.
Sukhoi Su-27/30/33/35/37 Flanker series & Su-34 Fullback - History, Design, Performance & Dissection
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It is a stall regardless of definition, which means Ziggy is (once again) speaking nonsense. The Su-27 stalls to perform the Cobra maneuver. It is the very principle of it.
He does not know the aerodynamic definition of the word Stall. Just like he does not know what the mechanical force of Lift is.
I have tried to extract these precise specifics out of him before so that we may review & find common ground if his positions are correct. But he will refuse just like he is doing now to you.
That is because he knows the moment he gets specific; is the very moment you are now able to track down his misconceptions precisely & come to the realization yourself that he actually has no idea what he is talking about & never did.
He has inadvertently provided too many specifics before that came back to bite him. Now, he is more reluctant to clarify more than ever :)
Immediately denying others the ability to fully understand the logic of each position they hold is not a quality of someone who has integrity.
Our ability to be objective depends on our willingness to question our mental models, the lens through which we perceive, interpret and respond to the world. If our mental models are incorrect, then our understanding of what is going on and our response to it, are often incorrect.
He is unwilling to allow others to see through the lens he perceives on these subjects. Because he is completely aware that they are rooted in dishonesty & will be immediately rejected upon actual analysis.
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That was a long winded way for you to say you won’t define stall in a way that validates your point. This is because you can’t. What you said was nonsense.
The Su-27 stalls to achieve the cobra maneuver. It is how it is described by the director of TsAGI, what I think is totally unrelated to the fact that you’re wrong.
not that i have done anything here but it might be a good idea to focus on getting things fixed instead of just wanting to be right on the internet and constantly arguing because of it.
agree to disagree and get back to being productive, im pretty sure the things that did come out of this can also be posted without you guys trying to skin eachother alive right?
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They aren’t making any reports, I’ve assisted with several and continue to do so. The reporting page and forum are separate now for a reason - and thankfully this means long lines of discussion (even when it isn’t productive) don’t actually seriously hinder active bug reporters anymore. If you want to stop rumors and false information from spreading leaving a couple replies after pointing it out is hugely beneficial.
In any case, the Cobra implies the rapid attainment of AoA to the point of total flow separation over the wing. The aircraft maintains forward motion but the wing is stalled until airflow can re-attach and provide sufficient sustainable lift which is below 30° AoA in wide majority of circumstances for the Su-27.
listen mate, i dont care. as far as i can tell this has gone on for more than a few lines now and ive seen enough posts from both of you to take a somewhat informed guess that this isnt going to end anytime soon either. neither of you will probably ever admit theyre wrong in this, so might as well stop early and do your thing. people will form their own opinion either way so you two telling eachother that either one of you is illiterate wont do much other than wasting eachothers time :p
not trying to mini mod or anything, i often come back here to read up on some stuff so its rather disappointing to see the majority of the time spent here was spent on telling eachother we’re dumb
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cheers buddy
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I think that your entire text wall would have better been served in DMs. Only one person here is calling other people dumb. Conveniently he almost exclusively does so without actually backing his original point further. If you didn’t care then don’t respond.
Let’s not add to the comment count without being semi productive and at least on topic.
I’ll ask again @Ziggy1989 please define ‘stall’ since you’re back to arguing semantics so we can analyze your statement from your own point of reference.
let me be more specific, and no offense, but i dont care for your reasoning behind this, your actions, you in general, ziggy, or anyone here for that matter. i care about this argument and how it holds up more useful things coming to light since thats what i, and im sure quite a lot of others, are here for. you too can take this to a dm with him, itll at least make it so people who come here out of interest dont need to read a multiple hour long repetitve argument. the fact you too keep on going with this makes you just as guilty as him.
you dont have to be right and neither does he, you two dont need to agree with eachother. seemingly no one other than you two seem to actually care about being right or wrong about this and neither one of you is going to swallow their pride so why not just move on and work on more useful things.
youd be surprised how much more open minded people become if they dont dislike you, and that counts for everyone, not just you.
thats all ill say. cant say i didnt try lol
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Because this is not my model & my decision alone. Its EVERYONE’S. We actually play the models we talk about unlike you.
You spam reports just to feel important without any regard to how to community feels.
The forum and topics like this are to drive community interest in these amazing machines & determine if these models need further update. If I wanted to be a jerk, I would have submitted reports without asking anyone & seeking counsel from the community. I care not only about making these models as real as possible. I care about how true fans of the aircraft feel because unlike you. We are going to play these aircraft long after you ruin them & move on. I even look for evidence to justify other’s positions I do not agree with unlike YOU.
(Btw boys & @konngou0224 @_Fantom2451)
The Su-27SM is currently the Russian domestic version of the Su-30MK2-based SMK mid-life upgrade, equipped with a N001VP Radar. It is said to have the same “additional search/detection modes” with greater targeting range to its “export” counterpart.
Note: the radar is not called N001VEP because E is the export designation & entails lesser capabilities of the domestic Russian version. Russia does not use radars that are export controlled in their own domestic fighters. Other technical forums will refer to the radar as simply N001VP or simply N001V. I have not found official confirmation of the radar name yet. But it has the ranges & search modes of the Chinese upgrades at the very least.
The radar in the SM is not as powerful & precise as the Zhuk-27 but is said to have all the capabilities of it. I will keep looking into it, I am trying to put better sources together.
Anyway, as for you @MiG_23M. I have nothing else to say to you. Please go talk about how the F-18 is supermaneuverable or something. I do not care, it’s just nonsense. There is no need to go back & forth on something the entire community & development knows.
The Su-27 is not like any aircraft of the 4th generation. Its aerodynamics are second to none. No aircraft can move like it unless provided with TVC.
My opinion on the Su 27 is that up to 24 AoA the aircraft is relatively care free. Above 24 AoA there is a continual degradation of flight characteristics that may lead to a potentially dangerous stall or spin . I think MiG 23M is right about the Su 27 having a slightly more unstable range around 30-40 AoA, there is a Cagi report somewhere that states this.
I also agree that the F-18A/C is a better handling aircraft ( in hight AoA) than the Su 27. This is due to its design and especially the more modern FbW.
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So you won’t define stall or further the discussion in a reasonable way. Understood.
You want the MiG-29 to ‘Cobra’ the way you say it should - but it can’t. It can only really do about 60° AoA. Both the Su-27 and MiG-29 need to reach point of total flow separation over the wing to achieve these ranges in motion. At the time this is achieved the wing is meeting all criteria for the common definitions of a wing stall. Airflow over the wing is no longer attached, there is a sudden and drastic drop in lift, it is not a sustainable practice. Maintaining this AoA would cause the aircraft to ‘sink’ without the aid of the engines thrust.
What you’ve claimed is absurd. Your claim that the MiG-29 or Su-27 are underperforming in high alpha isn’t based on anything of substance. We know the FM’s aren’t correct but the high alpha performance is as good as it historically could be at the moment. 60° AoA with nose approximately 90° from the ground is the MiG-29’s ‘Cobra’.
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They asked you. Multiple did. Myself included.
Please stop.
The Mig-29 is underperforming & it is underperforming so much that GJ decided to give it R-27ERs & never looked back. That is not consistent with a fully perfected FM if you must give it missiles it never used under the Soviet Flag.
The Su-27 is great but can use some fine tuning imo. @BBCRF & others who have an actual in-depth understanding of the specialized aerodynamics of these aircraft as well feel the model needs work to a much higher degree than I do. I am not sure what @_Fantom2451 thinks of the FM or the others. You are barking up the wrong tree, Killer. Complain to them.
Actually, I am making quick videos clips right now of each Flanker in the game for others who do not have access so they can determine how the aircraft fairs in their opinion in regard to dynamic decelerations & controlled side slipping.
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That is cool & that is your guy’s opinion.
However, do keep in mind that it is not the community & the Developer’s opinion nor is it the opinion of the former Chief of Aerodynamics Research at Northrop who specializes in high alpha design for over 50 years & worked on the F-18 & the F-20 Tigershark.
The Su-27 is capable of quote: “110-120 degrees of alpha demonstrating no tendency to roll off or depart”
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The 24 AoA limit on the Su 27 is not for fun, there is a reason. Above 24 AoA, stability is worse and if not handled carefully, the aircraft can go into a stall or spin. That’s why it’s limit (soft limit) at 24 AoA and not 50 AoA.
I mean, yes, the Su 27 has the capability to go above 24 AoA and can do up to maybe 120+ AoA, but it’s not exactly easy, obvious and completely safe. And that’s the point.
Keep in mind the F-18C lacks thrust to weight, it does not have an aerodynamic integral design (poor lift in fuselage.
The F-18C was made massively heavier than the YF-17 in order to make it carrier worthy & recieved no upgrade of the engines.
The F-18C is nowhere near as controllable as the Su-27 whatsoever. It has no tail vortex generators & its LERX was downgraded from the original Cobra Hood of the YF-17 due to simplicity & cost to produce. That is why the Super Hornet was upgraded with larger LERX, broader wings & dogtooth leading edge extensions to offset this terrible control. The F-18 E/F Super Hornet is still a terrible thrust to weight & is hard lock restricted by the FBW system as well because they do not want pilots dying during carrier operations unable to recover.
You are speaking to a man who has extensive research in high alpha design of both Russian & American fighters.
I would stop trying to say briefly under your breath “due to its design”. There is no design of the F-18 that would give it a better control performance over the Su-27.
The US was not looking for a premier NAVY Air to Air platform. The Tomcat was the NAVY’s true love. They needed a cheap multirole work truck & so they degraded the YF-17 (Originally Air Force Aircraft of LFX project) so that it may do just that.
Thrust is one thing, handling is another. If we are talking about differences, the Hornet A/C is more safe to the average pilot due to its digital control system which is more advanced. The AoA hight can be unlimited depending on the configuration.
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I was wondering if there is a video somewhere of a Su 27 in slow flight on flight day with the nose raised high similar to the Hornet A/C ?
Something like this: 6 min.
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