Yes, you are absolutely right but that model has the canards.
To be fair. The canards would completely eliminate any need of any vortex generators as they produce large vortices when deflected.
If you can find me the original Flanker in the tunnels without it. That would convince me.
According to the manual, if you move the stick hard enough, you can override the stick’s damping limit and briefly gain a larger usable AOA. Of course, on the Su-27 there is a “direct control” button that allows analog DEL.
Image not visible? I’ll try to figure that out.
This option was also being worked out. and it was called the Su-27S with a PGO
I didn’t say it would stop maneuvering lol.
You read my description of how much the Soviets invested heavily in the aircrafts ability to pitch. Pitch is a core tenant achieving dynamic attainment.
Control of the elevators to every degree possible would be an obvious move in design. It makes sense that I would look at this aircraft as a finely tuned aerodynamic perfected machine.
That reminds me, I would love to have this jet in WT.
Look how sick that pattern is. It looks like it’s probably faster than the production. Less maneuverable though.
Ok check this out… Some alternate perspective on the history of NIIP Tikhomirov’s N001 Mech radar & Phazotron’s N019.
I do remember hearing briefly a while back that NPO Istok (experimental design bureau) did develop the actual radar for the Su-27 prototype for the T-10-20 to original specification during or after the “Soyuz-Sintez” Experimental Radar program. It was called “Синтез-10” (Synthesis-10) & it was actually tested & performed phenomenal. However, Phazotron and NIIP Tikhomirov had a monopoly on the industry & political sway. That the “Electronic Industry was terrible in 1980 Soviet Union” excuse you guys have probably saw me post more than a few times was actually not true at all, but a cover for choosing these radars.
Apparently NPO Istok does not produce radars anymore but components, mainly microwave technology Klystrons, (beam vacuum tube for signal amplifiers for high RF) that are used in many systems like S-300, -400, Zaslon etc.
The account & radar specs to “Синтез-10” & link to the discussion (pretty cool forum actually) provided.
Thought its interesting & would share. I will look more into it as well. Take it with a pinch of salt. let me know thoughts.
80 years of the Soviet Union was the best radar, but not the rank and file charges later NIIP meal or two, but Istok СИНТЕЗ series of radar, then When the radar is successfully developed, it can be said that the above two streets are smashed!
The radar sample and the photos of the experiment at that time, the general situation of the aircraft modified with Figure-128 is that the Soviet airborne radar development was monopolized by Fazoton and NIIP, similar to the current 14 and the thunder and lightning yard pattern, NPO Istok provided them with microwave devices, but in the mid-1970s, with the support of Shaojin, the father of the Soviet microelectronics industry, Istok cooperated with the Pennant Design Bureau, which developed the missile seeker at that time, to ?Союз – Синтез Name the development of a new type of airborne radar (Shao Jin was very dissatisfied with the Soviet Union 's rigid system at the time, leading to the backwardness of Soviet electronic technology, encouraging innovation, so they dared to engage in this plan ).
The radar project started in the mid-1970s, which is the “Myech” airborne radar project in the Su-27 project, because the lag of that project caused Simonov to overthrow the early design and restarted. Decided to encourage innovation and start a new generation of airborne radar. The most classic product they developed successfully was СИНТЕЗ-10, probably in the mid-1970s. In the process of developing this airborne radar, Istok used its own technological advantages to create “multi-beam” transparency in the world. Technology such as traveling wave tube, ultra-low noise small electrostatic discharger and three-dimensional large-angle antenna hydraulic system. In the development of airborne radar, the first result in the Soviet Union was obtained: based on Soviet domestic components. The airborne radar with programmable digital signal processing function was developed. When the airborne radar was tested for flying, the trajectory processing method was used in the “target search” state to verify the calculated value of the target discovery distance. The target area of the square meter is more than 200 kilometers away; the ground is real-time imaged with a synthetic aperture antenna with a resolution of 7 meters.
This radar code is “synthesis”, which means the experimental synthetic aperture technology. The radar is designed and tested successfully in the 80s, but the radar itself is advanced in technology. Unfortunately, the radar is too advanced and exceeds the design requirements of the Soviet Air Force.(!? Really, the Soviet Air Force feels too advanced and a little uncomfortable), and more importantly, it touched the breasts of the two old big companies, and it’s not fun (like today’s domestic, halfway to kill a bite, Changhong) Also said that the airborne radar, 14 and the Thunder and Light Institute is not good.) Under the system at that time, it was put on the shelf and was blocked. Later, Istok was no longer involved in airborne radar. Later, Istok went to China to sell products and technology, which revealed this inside story, but at that time, the domestic cooperation with Fazoton did not happen.
According to the decision of the government military committee, Istok developed the development of airborne radar. The most sophisticated electronic products were developed and produced in the electronics industry’s enterprises – airborne radar for the new generation of fighters.
The “Синтез-10” airborne radar was successfully tested for the flight test.
In the process of developing airborne radar, the world first created:
- multi-note “transparent” traveling wave tube;
- ultra-low noise small electrostatic discharger;
- three-dimensional large-angle antenna hydraulic system, scanning speed 300 degrees / sec, acceleration 3000 degrees / second 2.
In the “Синтез-10” airborne radar development process, the former Soviet Union for the first time and obtained the following results:
- Component made entirely based on airborne radar developed with a programmable digital signal processing function;
- the onboard When the radar is tested for flying, the trajectory processing method is adopted in the “target search” state, and the calculated value of the target discovery distance is confirmed. For the target with a reflection area of 5 square meters, the distance is more than 200 kilometers;
- using the synthetic aperture antenna to the ground Real-time imaging was performed with a resolution of 7 meters.
The main combination of airborne synthetic aperture radar:
- Antenna. The X-band flat slot single-pulse antenna uses a unique salt bath welding process. The antenna has a diameter of 960 mm, a thickness of 50 mm and a weight of 13 kg. The antenna gain is greater than 37.5 dB within 6% bandwidth, and the far side lobe rms value does not exceed -50 dB.
- Transmitter. The modular multi-mode wideband transmitter uses a high-power multi-injection “transparent” traveling wave tube amplification chain with an output pulse power of 3.5 kW.
- Signal preprocessor. The programmable signal preprocessor can perform 512-point fast Fourier transform in 340 microseconds with an instantaneous dynamic range of 90 dB and a sidelobe level of minus 60 dB.
- Radar signal processor. The radar signal processor uses a single board machine with a processing speed of one million times per second.
Due to the high cost and complicated technology, the Soviet high-level finally chose the old but lower cost N001, N019 as the configuration of su27 and MiG-29, N001 even after 2010, equipped with Russian SU30M2
NPO Istok “Soyuz-Sintez” Experimental Radar program | Secret Projects Forum
The main building of the Federal State Unitary Enterprise "NPP “Istok”
The Decree of the State Defense Committee of the USSR “On Radar” was the first official document in our country that laid the foundation for the country’s radio-electronic industry and approved the development of domestic radar equipment as a matter of national importance, therefore it is of great historical importance, and the date of July 4, 1943 is the birthday of not only NII-160, the current FSUE NPP Istok, but also the entire radio-electronic industry of Russia
FGUP "NPP “Istok”: 65 years of development and progress // Electronic Technology, Series 1, Microwave Technology, iss. 2 (492), 2008, pp. 3-9. (gastroscan.ru)
“Now, the NIIP version of this story is that the USSR simply could not produce reliably the planar array antenna for Myech at that time, which led to the Myech borrowing the N019 antenna as a stop gap. It seems likely that two major factors against Istok’s radar would have been cost and difficulty of production.”
(Some of the comments in the topic)
Here you guys thought only Ziggy is just making up random stuff about “planar array radars” for no reason just to argue. It is good to know people outside the game in full technical forums hold the same positions…
These RWR covers have an effect only on the drag and that is very small.Therefore, you will hardly find them in calculations and models
The question was rather not of monopoly, but of price
Well politics did exist. Of course, nothing to the degree of the Capitalist.
I agree, the Soviet Union likely determined (Aware of Dissolution) that they cannot make many of these advanced radars nor will it do the new Russian Government good coming in.
It does makes sense from a Communist perspective that they would make the decision to run with NIIP’s N019 & NIIR’s N001. The ability to mass produces units that can already do the job well & is of a technology that is easily maintained & quickly replaced if loss is more ideal. Especially given the situation of the 80s.
A more favorable timeline for the Mech. Seems logical.
The Myech was tested from 1978. The antenna was electronically scanned in elevation which made it pretty ambitious. In testing it was found to have large side lobes. Overall the radar range was less than half the required value. Design features of the antenna imposed limitations on tracking targets at high angle rates and scan area limitations. In 1982, it was decided to replace the troubled antenna with a scaled-up version of the N019’s antenna. In August 1982 a Myech was fitted with a 720mm twist-cassegrain antenna borrowed directly from the N019 and showed considerable improvement. By October 1982 a 1074mm twist-cassegrain antenna was fitted and combined with other changes to processors and other components produced much improved results.
In early 1983, the decision was taken to go with the proven technology for now (rejection of Синтез-10) and continue work on slotted arrays and phased arrays for future implementation, work which led to the N011 and N011M for future improved Su-27 models.
The twist-Cassegrain antenna was a mature technology which the USSR already could mass produce (Sapfir-23/25) and was very well designed with low sidelobes.
N010 and N011 never made mass production. (There’s a big difference between building a few prototypes and churning 100s or 1000s out in a factory.)
NiIP skipped to phased array designs like Bars and Irbis, which drew on their Zaslon experience.
NIIR don’t seem to have sold much of anything since.
I think it’s pretty awesome that the Синтез-10 existed & demonstrated the technology that very well could have been in the radar of the Su-27. It was not just a wish list on paper. Those are quite the specs. I will look into it more for more verification.
ill keep my hopium up
Actually, they are definitely used to strakes in angles of attack too. They are all intentionally removed from any Flanker with canards. Because the canard defeats their purpose and does the job much better**. So much they removed the RWR too**.
If they were exclusively an RWR. With no aerodynamic properties, why remove them from all flankers with canards? Experimental too? They have no bearing on the RWR unless it was aerodynamics. :)
It appears that its more important to aerodynamics that an RWR since they removed them the moment better aerodynamic surfaces are added? Canards. They have no bearing on the RWRs functionality there is no reason to remove them unless it was due to aerodynamics.
Their effect on lift is about zero, if not negative, they were removed.As soon as more advanced antennas appeared.Not canard.These are just antenna covers.Just like all the other covers
Wait, you thought it was about lift? No not lift.
I agree they removed because its obsolete it probably was not doing any good probable negative.
And what exactly is it? They provide additional resistance on the air intake.And also at high angles of attack, they create vortices affecting the underwing.
I agree. The positives did not out weight the negatives. No modern Flankers have them anymore.
That’s a very nice paper!
As you see the actual polar of the aircraft is below (aka less efficient) than the ideal one with E = constant. That’s exactly because E is not constant in real life, as Lifting Line theory is just an approximation.
That’s actually really cool
It’s not even permanent. This is the inverse coefficient of A (it is called the coeff of the polar blade) and after 0.85M it becomes unstable
