Supermaneuverability is the capability of fighter aircraft to execute tactical maneuvers that are not possible with purely aerodynamic techniques. Such maneuvers can involve controlled side-slipping or angles of attack beyond maximum lift. This capability was researched beginning in 1975 at the … See more
You claimed the aircraft did not stall at 120° angle of attack. This isn’t true as stated by TsAGI. Nothing you say about me changes that. I didn’t lie, no one qualified on the subject would legitimately claim an aircraft could do what you claimed in that context.
Or perhaps you claim the people who designed the airframe are wrong?
It very clearly states that flow is fully separated between 60 and 90° in the study by TsAGI. It states that passage through region 30-40° must be quick to avoid disturbances that lead to uncontrolled departure.
Supermaneuverable maneuvers such as the cobra can be considered controlled departures, but are still departures. I.e. the airframe is stalled.
Any angle of attack beyond CL Max where the lift coefficient begins to decrease can be characterised as a “stall” but still be providing positive lift…
Under this definition a stall would be considered anything beyond 16 degrees AOA in most aircraft…
In this case, the aircraft reaches a speed and angle of attack that is not sustainable for a brief moment with total flow separation over the wing. Still, it produces some lift. This is a stall by any definition of the term.
You do not know what you are reading. You have a very basic reading comprehension. You have about a 200L reading comprehension level. You qualify for surface/simple reading & possess a basic understanding of the text.
As much as I regret to inform, you do not have an ability for In-depth/complex reading, deeper analysis & critical thinking.
You just highlighted further proof of a poor reading comprehension.
Yes, airflow seperation happens at these degrees. NO DUH.
Again, for the 6th time, what does supermaneuvrability entail?
Angles of attack BEYOND maximum lift.
The Russians will not tell you the exact alpha capability of their aircraft throughout their entire flight envelope & of each speed regime.
Do I need to explain why?
The actual Chief of Aerodynamics Research at Northrop, who led the development of the revolutionary Forebody Vortex Control technology that was successfully flight tested on the F-5, X-29 and F/A-18. In 1979, who was awarded the prestigious Wright Brothers Medal for his work in high angle-of-attack aerodynamics and flight mechanicshas confirmed himself that earliest Flankers had demonstrated a 110-120 degree of Alpha.
He literally specializes in American high Alpha design. You know, that F-18 you actually think is just as capable as an Su-27?? He developed the experimental vortex control that was tested in that aircraft.
You are only armed with a high diploma as your ability to interpret aerodynamics.
Sir, I say with upmost compassion & pity… You are in way over your head trying to read, let alone lecture anyone in this hyper specialized field of aerodynamics.
The Su-27 handbook refers to stalls as departure conditions which are dependent on speed and AoA. The designers of the aircraft refer to the maneuver as a controlled departure. Ziggy is claiming the aircraft did not stall, and still… the cobra maneuver meets all aeronautical conditions for a “stall” regardless of how you define it professionally.
It is a stall regardless of definition, which means Ziggy is (once again) speaking nonsense. The Su-27 stalls to perform the Cobra maneuver. It is the very principle of it.
He does not know the aerodynamic definition of the word Stall. Just like he does not know what the mechanical force of Lift is.
I have tried to extract these precise specifics out of him before so that we may review & find common ground if his positions are correct. But he will refuse just like he is doing now to you.
That is because he knows the moment he gets specific; is the very moment you are now able to track down his misconceptions precisely & come to the realization yourself that he actually has no idea what he is talking about & never did.
He has inadvertently provided too many specifics before that came back to bite him. Now, he is more reluctant to clarify more than ever :)
Immediately denying others the ability to fully understand the logic of each position they hold is not a quality of someone who has integrity.
Our ability to be objective depends on our willingness to question our mental models, the lens through which we perceive, interpret and respond to the world. If our mental models are incorrect, then our understanding of what is going on and our response to it, are often incorrect.
He is unwilling to allow others to see through the lens he perceives on these subjects. Because he is completely aware that they are rooted in dishonesty & will be immediately rejected upon actual analysis.
That was a long winded way for you to say you won’t define stall in a way that validates your point. This is because you can’t. What you said was nonsense.
The Su-27 stalls to achieve the cobra maneuver. It is how it is described by the director of TsAGI, what I think is totally unrelated to the fact that you’re wrong.
not that i have done anything here but it might be a good idea to focus on getting things fixed instead of just wanting to be right on the internet and constantly arguing because of it.
agree to disagree and get back to being productive, im pretty sure the things that did come out of this can also be posted without you guys trying to skin eachother alive right?
They aren’t making any reports, I’ve assisted with several and continue to do so. The reporting page and forum are separate now for a reason - and thankfully this means long lines of discussion (even when it isn’t productive) don’t actually seriously hinder active bug reporters anymore. If you want to stop rumors and false information from spreading leaving a couple replies after pointing it out is hugely beneficial.
In any case, the Cobra implies the rapid attainment of AoA to the point of total flow separation over the wing. The aircraft maintains forward motion but the wing is stalled until airflow can re-attach and provide sufficient sustainable lift which is below 30° AoA in wide majority of circumstances for the Su-27.
listen mate, i dont care. as far as i can tell this has gone on for more than a few lines now and ive seen enough posts from both of you to take a somewhat informed guess that this isnt going to end anytime soon either. neither of you will probably ever admit theyre wrong in this, so might as well stop early and do your thing. people will form their own opinion either way so you two telling eachother that either one of you is illiterate wont do much other than wasting eachothers time :p
not trying to mini mod or anything, i often come back here to read up on some stuff so its rather disappointing to see the majority of the time spent here was spent on telling eachother we’re dumb
I think that your entire text wall would have better been served in DMs. Only one person here is calling other people dumb. Conveniently he almost exclusively does so without actually backing his original point further. If you didn’t care then don’t respond.
Let’s not add to the comment count without being semi productive and at least on topic.
I’ll ask again @Ziggy1989 please define ‘stall’ since you’re back to arguing semantics so we can analyze your statement from your own point of reference.
let me be more specific, and no offense, but i dont care for your reasoning behind this, your actions, you in general, ziggy, or anyone here for that matter. i care about this argument and how it holds up more useful things coming to light since thats what i, and im sure quite a lot of others, are here for. you too can take this to a dm with him, itll at least make it so people who come here out of interest dont need to read a multiple hour long repetitve argument. the fact you too keep on going with this makes you just as guilty as him.
you dont have to be right and neither does he, you two dont need to agree with eachother. seemingly no one other than you two seem to actually care about being right or wrong about this and neither one of you is going to swallow their pride so why not just move on and work on more useful things.
youd be surprised how much more open minded people become if they dont dislike you, and that counts for everyone, not just you.
thats all ill say. cant say i didnt try lol
Because this is not my model & my decision alone. Its EVERYONE’S. We actually play the models we talk about unlike you.
You spam reports just to feel important without any regard to how to community feels.
The forum and topics like this are to drive community interest in these amazing machines & determine if these models need further update. If I wanted to be a jerk, I would have submitted reports without asking anyone & seeking counsel from the community. I care not only about making these models as real as possible. I care about how true fans of the aircraft feel because unlike you. We are going to play these aircraft long after you ruin them & move on.I even look for evidence to justify other’s positions I do not agree with unlike YOU.
(Btw boys & @konngou0224@_Fantom2451)
The Su-27SM is currently the Russian domestic version of the Su-30MK2-based SMK mid-life upgrade, equipped with a N001VP Radar. It is said to have the same “additional search/detection modes” with greater targeting range to its “export” counterpart.
Note: the radar is not called N001VEP because E is the export designation & entails lesser capabilities of the domestic Russian version. Russia does not use radars that are export controlled in their own domestic fighters. Other technical forums will refer to the radar as simply N001VP or simply N001V. I have not found official confirmation of the radar name yet. But it has the ranges & search modes of the Chinese upgrades at the very least.
The radar in the SM is not as powerful & precise as the Zhuk-27 but is said to have all the capabilities of it. I will keep looking into it, I am trying to put better sources together.
Anyway, as for you @MiG_23M. I have nothing else to say to you. Please go talk about how the F-18 is supermaneuverable or something. I do not care, it’s just nonsense. There is no need to go back & forth on something the entire community & development knows.
The Su-27 is not like any aircraft of the 4th generation. Its aerodynamics are second to none. No aircraft can move like it unless provided with TVC.
