Sukhoi Su-27/30/33/35/37 Flanker series & Su-34 Fullback - History, Design, Performance & Dissection

[SpartanulPH]

I got no clue what I am supposed to like or not, anyway I didn’t comment to start arguing so I will end saying the same thing as before. I never had problem with going in full real control and pulling cobra at 700kmh

[Ziggy1989]

Ok I appreciate you leveling with me. I will too.

It is entirely possible that there was never a single barrier placed at 700km-800k, in which greatly limited alpha until the Flanker speeds reduced under. It is entirely possible the jet never ripped at .75 when attempting to override the barrier with rudder and pitch.

However, if that was the case, a pure sim player and myself were debating over a nonexistent limitation in the FM for about a week. He was arguing in favor, I was arguing against. When it actually never existed. Which would be funny when you think about it.

However, again. I will post vids on my YouTube shortly of the limitation that is no longer there that limited the Flankers ability to cobra down to 450km. In which you know from your experience is much higher and my video posting it being done.

I do appreciate you chiming in. My apologies in regard to referring to your stat card. I hope the state of air RB improves to see you return to the Flanker.

[_Fantom2451]

Guys, pls, discus tanks not here

[dotSHINI]

read the end of that conversation
you are barking up the wrong tree here

[MiG_23M]

As we can see, ALL specific flight model changes to aircraft will show up in datamine. Further discourse about whether or not something has changed should note these changes or at the very least be discussed alongside footage of testing both before and after claimed changes.

Anything else is another round of nonsense.

@Markus752

That’s not how that works.

They change something, we will know.

Precisely!

@Markus752

If a FM get’s touched the FM files WILL show changes.

Been saying this for 1000+ comments now.

@SpartanulPH

I have done cobra at 700kmh all the time, it isn’t any recent change

I agree, and someone mentioned 900 km/h earlier? Now it is just 700? Why does the story change constantly?

@SpartanulPH

Damn how high is your reddit karma, u went and did a review of my account to prove what?? exactly nothing XD.

I can only imagine why someone would do that… Surely they know attacking ones’ character does not improve their stance in an argument.

@SpartanulPH

I played enough with the Su-27 in custom battles and also every change is visible if u look at the files and compare the changes in the lines of code

That is all that is necessary. The game affords us the ability to test fly vehicles in fully upgraded condition. Usage in actual matches is entirely irrelevant to comparisons of performance before and after a patch.

[Ziggy1989]

@MiG_23M

The game affords us the ability to test fly vehicles in fully upgraded condition. Usage in actual matches is entirely irrelevant to comparisons of performance before and after a patch.

Of course, says the guy who golden eagles’ aircraft, never plays them competitively for more than 20 games and thinks he’s an expert because he flies around in circles in test flight and has Datamine tools.

Playing the aircraft as they were designed to be played and offering feedback is most important to developers.
Not the people who rely on Datamine reports then turns around and tells the developers how to do their job and what modelling parameters that need to be changed.

They respect actual player feedback who actually play the game as designed. You do not play the game as designed but like to pretend you know everything about it and where it is going based on your 3-month experience interpreting game files.

You offer nothing of value in terms of end user experience.

Team, get out there and play the game. Stop relying on datamines or changelogs to tell you if a model is performing correctly competitively and historically. Playing the game is the number one requirement.

@MiG_23M

I agree, and someone mentioned 900 km/h earlier? Now it is just 700?

capability to cobra is 700km, permissible angles of attack associated with supermaneuvrability is up to .80

High subsonic. Dynamic deceleration tactics are now possible, and enough energy remains to stay in the dogfight.

Developers are on the money with the Su27.

@MiG_23M

I can only imagine why someone would do that… Surely they know attacking ones’ character does not improve their stance in an argument.

A video game stat card is not a reflection of one’s personal character.

lol.

Man, this logic is almost as bad as you getting mad and blaming developers for modeling, adding vehicles and weapon systems you literally wanted and asked for.

@MiG_23M

They said they would never add afterburning jets, make premiums after rank 5, or add air to air missiles at one point.

[FeetPics]

@Ziggy1989

Gajin makes changes to their own game many times in any given week.

They have no obligation to disclose any of that information to you. When they do, they have no obligation to disclose everything that was changed and to what degree.

Enough.

Any changes to the flight model would show up in the data-mine.

@Ziggy1989

700km cobra is now a reality in the Su27 whether you like it or not.

How or when it was implemented is none of your business.

It didn’t return because it never left…you have just been acting like a paranoid schizophrenic.

@Ziggy1989

I understand you have reservations with being able to perform high alpha maneuvers in full real control in high subsonic regimes as you are purely a sim player and have indicated that you are having technical (not skill) issue managing your alpha and energy management as it is.

That you are unable to perform against F-16s and F-15s.

The issue with the Su-27 flight model has nothing to do with pulling high AoA maneuverers and the lack of energy retention is something that is baked into the flight model.

[AUSChalkWarrior]

the 2A7V is worse than the Strv122 which has been in the game for years, I think it’s just that German players are better

[Ziggy1989]

@FeetPics

It didn’t return because it never left…you have just been acting like a paranoid schizophrenic.

Ziggy1989:

So, essentially you are admitting that you have been arguing with me for a week and defending a barrier at 800km-900km that never existed because you do not know how to regulate your alpha in full real?

@FeetPics

Any changes to the flight model would show up in the data-mine.

Source? lol. Source this declaration right now.

Or you going to send me another irrelevant NASA article describing the speed regimes of Airliners that has nothing to do with the issue at hand?

@FeetPics

NASA seems to define the High Subsonic speed regime as being anything between 250mph to 750mph.

Any changes to ground models magically pop up in datamines too? Is there a special detection program that alerts you of model changes are being implemented on the live server?

@FeetPics

The issue with the Su-27 flight model has nothing to do with pulling high AoA maneuverers and the lack of energy retention is something that is baked into the flight model.

Then why were you screeching and crying because I desired permissible alpha at a speed that was supposedly there all along?? You even justified the “nonexistent barrier” below…

@FeetPics

The flight model change was by and large an improvement to the way that the plane handles. Immediately cobra-ing at 900kph and losing all speed is not very useful in gameplay.

Right now as it stands the flight model is still inferior to pretty much all of the USA stuff but that is mainly a factor due to it’s lack of energy retention / ability to regain energy while turning.

If my desire to perform high angles of attack at 900km has nothing to do with your inability to maintain energy while dogfighting in Sim and was there all along. Then why did you even bring it up in the first place?
Even defending the nonexistent barrier stating it was an improvement because losing all your speed is not useful.

Feety, do you think we are stupid and cannot simply bring up your earlier post? Are you still going to deny you brought in a NASA description of speed regimes of Airliners (a transonic aircraft)? Using their listed typical operating speeds to hilariously assume that their lowest operating speed of 250mph means high subsonic? All because you saw the word “High Subsonic” in the title of a NASA speed classification of Airliners?

@FeetPics

I am glad you are able to humble yourself and admit your mistake

I thought we are humble and can admit err. You see I can when I make a mistake. Why can’t you??

So, did the barrier ever exist? Or you going to admit you argued with me, a paranoid schizophrenic user for a full week over a nonexistent limitation in the Su27 flight model and actually defended it? lol.

Or just perhaps… there are additional developer parameters that can be manipulated that affect a model’s behavior in the game that the general public are not privy to and have access to? I know it sounds wild to you and those who just learned how to Datamine 3 months ago.

No, not a remote possibility?

[Markus752]

No Parameter can be changed without showing in the files.

If I give an excel sheet with numbers in it, what exactly do you think you can change without showing ANY changes?!

Even if they touched something on the engine, which would affect ALL vehicles, then we would STILL be able to see it.

The Datamine shows changed values vs kept ones. Anything they change would be highlighted.

What do YOU think they can change without it showing up? It’s pretty clear that nothing has changed, placebo is one hell of a drug… if you are happy with the plane now then just be happy about it, it’s just pretty clear that nothing changed other than maybe your testing procedure.

[Ziggy1989]

Yeah can you show me the last instructor and autopilot changes in the files?

[Markus752]

No there is no “magical popup” it’s a simple program taking the same code, lining it up next to each other and compare “old vs new” it’s not magical it’s extremely simple.

And yes, ground models or ANY changes at all WILL show up in that comparison.

The Source is that when you have 2 copies of the same thing you can compare them. If one of them has changes made you can either find them with your own eyes or just have a program only highlight the bits that changed.

[Markus752]

Sure, IF THERE WERE ANY :D

[Ziggy1989]

Show the last ones for any aircraft files

Show me what parameters dictate rip speed and alpha at all speed regimes for any aircraft

[Markus752]

Check the very bottom

JAS39A

• Wing
  • Coefficient changes in stall lowered
    • Cd gain from 0.02 to 0.01
    • Cl loss from 0.05 to 0.01
  • AoA shift at 25 degrees AoA from 0.01 to -0.01
    • Aircraft will naturally tend to higher AoA from 25deg
• Flapless wing
  • Oswald’s efficiency coefficient from 0.66 to 0.67
    • Will result in very slightly lower drag coefficient depending on AoA, meaning better overall turn
  • Lift coefficient AFTER stall adjusted
    • High: from 1.3 to 1.6
    • Low: from -0.9 to -1.4
  • Pitch moment decrease from Mach 0.3 (0.03 → 0.04)
  • Pitch moment decrease from Mach 0.8 (0.08 → 0.1)
    • Will mean less instantaneous turn
  • Critical AoA adjustments
    • High: 36 to 37deg
    • Low: -28 to -32deg
• Wing with flaps out
  • Lift coefficient AFTER stall adjusted
    • High: from 1.5 to 1.7
    • Low: from -0.5 to -0.8
  • Pitch moment decrease from Mach 0.3-0.6 (0.03 → 0.04)
  • Pitch moment decrease from Mach 0.8 (0.08 → 0.1)
    • Will mean less instantaneous turn
  • Low critical AoA adjustment: -29 to -31deg
  • Lift coefficient at low critical AoA: -0.4 to -0.8
• Elevator
  • Area increased from 3.6 to 4.6m2
  • Oswald’s efficiency coefficient from 0.15 to 0.55
    • Will result in lower drag coefficient depending on AoA, meaning better overall turn
  • Lift coefficient AFTER stall adjusted
    • High: from 1.2 to 1.5
    • Low: from -1.2 to -1.5
  • Critical lift coefficient Mach multiplier max increase from 0.7 to 0.8
    • Depending on Mach number, peak Cl will be a bit higher
  • Critical AoA adjustments
    • High: 34 to 38deg
    • Low: -34 to -38deg
  • Zero-lift drag coefficient increased from 0.00688 to 0.007
• Vertical stabilizer
  • Span increased from 2.0 to 3.0m
• Aileron deflection multiplier depending on different speeds adjusted to be less sensitive
• Pitch multiplier depending on different speeds adjusted
  • Increased elevator deflection at 150 and 200km/h at 2000m
• Max weight from 160t to 60t
  • Doesn’t affect anything
    *** Instructor critical multiplier increased from 0.76 to 0.8**
    ** * Will allow instructor to pull a little bit more**

[Ziggy1989]

I asked for files you give me a changelog LMFAO

go away kid with your 100hp car

[Markus752]

Yes, go ahead and open up the files yourself, I am on the phone right now. Go ahead, he usually links the raw files, too.

[Ziggy1989]

Ily markus. You so silly.

[Markus752]

GitHub - gszabi99/War-Thunder-Datamine: Frequently updated War Thunder...

Here, check out what you want. Save those and then come back to it when the next “update” happens that you believe in and check if anything changed…

[Ziggy1989]

yeah and our boy Gzabi99 knows there are parameters that can be altered that we are unaware or cannot be reported.