Sukhoi Su-27/30/33/35/37 Flanker series & Su-34 Fullback - History, Design, Performance & Dissection (Part 1)

[Ziggy1989]

@MiG_23M

They don’t understand that grid fins are more easily used in multiple roles than conventional fins. Let them be ignorant.

You think space X grid fins are air brakes. You completely made that up and still refuse to provide any source. You never will.

Falcon 9’s is equipped with hypersonic grid fins which manipulate the direction of the stage’s lift during reentry.
they control roll, pitch, and yaw the 14-story stage up to 20 degrees in order to target a precision landing.

Falcon 9 Grid Fins do not work as brakes & they are not designed with increase drag either.

That is absurd nonsense because if they designed them with any drag beyond that which is needed to control roll, pitch, and yaw the Grid Fins will simply rip off in reentry & likely tear the vehicle apart in the process.

They cannot be used as airbrakes & must have reduced drag to offset the immensely compressed & superheated airflow of reentry & hypersonic flight. SpaceX

Lastly, The Falcon 9 stands 229.6 feet tall and has a mass of 1.2 million pounds…

You are out of your mind if you think those 4 Grid Fins are slowing it down in reentry.

[MiG_23M]

Source is wrong, every single SpaceX launch has been recorded. Show me one with Russian engines.

They have not ever used the RD-180 in any SpaceX venture.

@Ziggy1989

You think space X grid fins are air brakes

Yes, and they are. In many cases, grid fins serve multiple purposes. The grid fins help to slow it down and avoid wasting additional propellant in the process. That’s why the grids are so dummy thick.

If they were just for precision control, they wouldn’t want all the excess heat and this could be avoided (while improving the margin for control) by making the grids ultra thin at the points and taper. It doesn’t matter how you scale a grid fin, if it isn’t meant for slowing down… you’d want equally thin points on any size grid fins.

[Necronomica]

@MiG_23M

Source is wrong, every single SpaceX launch has been recorded. Show me one with Russian engines.

They have not ever used the RD-180 in any SpaceX venture.

This point i agree with.

@MiG_23M

Yes, and they are.

Do you have ANY source to back up that claim? like, anything from spacex saying that they either are or have been used as air brakes?

Edit:
here is a post by Musk stating that a future design to help with braking might be considered. meaning that the ones used at that time (2021) were not designed to be used as air brakes.

[Ziggy1989]

@MiG_23M

Yes, and they are. In many cases, grid fins serve multiple purposes

Show me one case. I am not asking for many cases, just one. Should be easy then.
Thanks

You have no sources, you cannot even articulate in your own written word how would these small 4x5ft grid fins would have any effect in slowing the 229.6 feet tall, mass of 603.96 tons Falcon 9 in reentry.

Everything I provided on the grid fins came studies on the Falcon 9 & from the Space X website.

@MiG_23M

The grid fins help to slow it down and avoid wasting additional propellant in the process.

They do not load fuel that is not intended to be used, genius.

You made that up 100%

@Necronomica

Do you have ANY source to back up that claim? like, anything from spacex saying that they either are or have been used as air brakes?

Does not exist. All sources & Space X are pretty clear on the matter the exact us of the control surfaces.
No different that the R-77 but designed to operate High hypersonic, hypersonic, supersonic & Transonic regimes. The R-77 Grid fins are designed for Supersonic regimes.

Spoiler

@Ziggy1989

Falcon 9’s first stage is equipped with hypersonic grid fins which manipulate the direction of the stage’s lift during reentry. The fins are placed in an X-wing configuration and are stowed on ascent and deployed during reentry.

In the atmosphere, RCS thrusters aren’t powerful enough to steer the rocket, and the engine isn’t ignited every time. The body of the rocket can generate a little bit of lift when moving at the right angle, like a Soyuz. Grid fins are strong enough to resist to the hypersonic flow, that means the air goes by with a speed greater than Mach5 = 6150km/h or, for scientist, 1710m.s^-1. They can control the attitude of the Falcon even at high speeds.)

While the fins are relatively small – they measure just 4 feet by 5 feet (about 1m by 1.5m) – they can roll, pitch, and yaw the 14-story stage up to 20 degrees in order to target a precision landing.

If they roll 2 by 2 in the same direction (“up - down” and “left- right”) they can control Yaw and Pitch. If you roll the 4 of them in the same direction, the Falcon9 has an excellent roll rate.

[Celestia]

It’s quoted that as much as 30% of the fuel (oxidiseer + propellant) is remaining in the booster on typical launches for starlink satellites.

When re-usability is the primary objective, and that requires a suicide burn to land the booster, the last thing you want is to run out of fuel.

[Ziggy1989]

@Celestia

When re-usability is the primary objective, and that requires a suicide burn to land the booster, the last thing you want is to run out of fuel.

Successful reentry & landing is the primary objective.

Anyway… no more off topic deviation (people pinged me), later.

[MiG_23M]

@Ziggy1989

Show me one case. I am not asking for many cases, just one. Should be easy then.

You’ve already been provided several, Soyuz for example are used as air brakes almost exclusively.

The Falcon 9 booster uses all available surfaces for slowing down descent. This minimizes terminal velocity and reduces required propellant for landing. No, they don’t use all the propellant. This is intentional because as said above… You don’t want to run out of fuel when trying to land a multi-story tall building essentially.

Even the landing gear assist in reducing terminal velocity by 1/2.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150131013833/http://shitelonsays.com/transcript/elon-musk-at-mits-aeroastro-centennial-part-1-of-6-2014-10-24

The basic design of the grid fins as a control surface at high mach numbers would dictate thin grids to avoid wave drag. The falcon 9 seems optimized to increase drag and still flow at the same time unlike the R-77’s which is optimized simply for low drag.

@Ziggy1989

Anyway… no more off topic deviation (people pinged me), later.

Only you get to spout absurdities and then it’s hush so no one can correct you?

Even if you don’t believe me and want a source explicitly stating that it is used to assist slowing the falcon 9 down, you must admit it is absurd they’d make thick and draggy grid fins if heat was an issue… instead they manufactured even thicker titanium grid fins (the old ones were aluminum) instead of improving the heating issue by making the aluminum models thinner.

The tip of the R-77’s grids fins are ultra fine and pointy. It doesn’t matter how you scale a grid fin, if it isn’t being used to slow something down you’ll want the tips to be ultra sharp. This stalls the wave drag issue and reduces heating, improves airflow and control. The falcon has taken the opposite approach and uses peaks & valleys to ensure there is still flow while simultaneously allowing the high drag to minimize terminal velocity of the missile.

In their latest iterations, the landing gear isn’t even necessary in higher re-entry phases to slow the rocket down anymore.

[Bundeswehr]

What was the Su-27SM the indicator on the windshield like?

[Ziggy1989]

Is this garbage supposed to be a real source?

A Website titled: S*** Elon Says ?
From the wayback machine?

Kind of a stretch when you can simply go to Space X site or any study about the Falcon 9. Was this what you spent all day looking for? This garbage interview?

This is just crap a billionaire lol says. He says really idiotic things daily…

Wait… Do you actually think Elon Musk is a scientist & inventor?? You think he has any clue about space flight? Let me guess you think he invented the electric car? LMFAO

What does this garbage have to do with grid fins?

@MiG_23M

Any projected area, surface & mass can reduce terminal velocity lol.

Yes, you increase the surfaces area of a falling object through a gas or liquid it will reduce its terminal velocity. This means nothing LMFAOOO

ANY surface can be used to reduce terminal velocity. Even LANDING GEARS. That is why it was mentioned. Do you even know what terminal velocity is??? lol

Jesus Christ, you are brilliant.
The landing gear already works to provide drag, they get dual use out of the landing gear.
Not the Grid fins.

LMFAO. Even Elon confirms the landing gear provides drag. Not the Grid Fins. The grid fins control the Falcon 9’s attitude roll, yaw & pitch.

Your 4th grade reading comprehension full display once again.
You even highlighted the proof that your whole idea that grid fins are used as airbrakes is completely made up.

Dude omg this hilarious! My boy, do you think before you post??
You invertedly highlighted the proof that I was right from the beginning…

Grid fins are not airbrakes, neither are they designed to produce more drag. They are hypersonic grid fins.
The Falcon 9 slows down with its reentry booster & massive drag of the landing gear. According to Elon Musk.

Thanks Elon!

[redeyepilot]

I don’t want to enter into this, but I don’t think MiG is saying that the spaceX fins are purposefully designed to be draggy, just that if they are a bit draggy it is not the end of the world. Not totally optimized to be low drag, which would be a design goal for a missile. Since they are used to control the descent if they drag it isn’t a bad thing

[Ziggy1989]

@redeyepilot

I don’t want to enter into this, but I don’t think MiG is saying that the spaceX fins are purposefully designed to be draggy,

Here,

Spoiler

@MiG_23M

Grid fins on the Falcon 9 are optimized as air brakes to slow the rocket down

@MiG_23M

The use of the fin as an airbrake and to slow the rocket down

Can I help you with anything else?

@redeyepilot

just that if they are a bit draggy it is not the end of the world.

For vehicles that renter the earth’s atmosphere near 17,500 mph it is, absolutely.
There is not really any margin for error in the subject putting 220,000–331,000lb payloads into to low earth orbit.

The falcon 9 needs efficient attitude control in the following speed regimes: reentry, high hypersonic, hypersonic, supersonic & transonic. The Grid Fins are aerodynamically designed to work in all 5. However, it is predominately a Hypersonic grid fin.

Making them too draggy when operating in retry can lead to catastrophic consequences.

Too draggy reduces number of flights from increased wear & stress. They can become inoperable in flight due to the immense compression & superheated airflow at reentry speed & hypersonic etc. Or they can simply be ripped off the Falcon 9 and likely take down the vehicle in the process (Space Shuttle Columbia).

[MiG_23M]

You should try comic sans with the bold and enlarged letters

[ZVO_12_INCH]

Spoiler

[BBCRF]

[MiG_23M]

Su-57 is different, of course it can carry quite a few missiles on external pylons as well. What is the maximum payload?

[ZVO_12_INCH]

The most common figure is 10 tons…

[MiG_23M]

I meant the most number of mounted air to air missiles?

[ZVO_12_INCH]

14-16 pieces(P-77-1/ R-74M/R-74M2)…

Spoiler

https://m.vk.com/wall-140312885_307109

[MiG_23M]

So around 12x R-77-1 and 2x R-74M2? Possibly more.

[BBCRF]

The scheme from Arma 3, nothing to do with the IRL