As it currently stands, there are some genuine concerns about the Sea Harrier FA2 and it’s balance vs other jets. And whilst I am personally waiting for live to before casting a final judgement on the aircraft (it is still rather unfinished). It is certainly worth thinking about possible solutions for the aircraft.
The First is the simplest. Lower the BR. Considering its loadout, it would probably be unable to go below 12.0. But 12.0 would probably be suffecient to provide the buffer between it and the current 13.0 aircraft above it. Whilst this change probably cant come straight away as people will need time to learn how to counter AMRAAM, once people have become use to them. Then that strength will be somewhat mitigated.
(Harrier Gr7 was very strong when it was added with 4x Aim-9Ls, but within a few months it had lost a lot of its potency and actually felt rather underpowered. So much so that it got Aim-9Ms without any BR change)
The second solution is to give the Sea Harrier FA2 an airspawn on all maps (and an increased spawn alt on maps with airspawn). This would allow the Sea Harrier FA2 to have a height and energy advantage, without adding to the compression issue. This is somewhat historically accurate as well. The Sea Harrier FA2 often cruised around 10k ft above most other aircraft (approx 30k ft). Giving the airframe an advantage despite its speed. From experience in the Dev Server. Most aircraft would still rather easily outclimb the FA2. but would no longer hold such a notable advantage.
The third solution is adding upgraded AAMs. ASRAAM would be the obvious option, but they are obviously too strong and fictional nerfed versions are an overly messy solution. Aim-120C5s are also not an option as the FA2 never equipped them. The only possible solution in this area is to add a later block variant of the Aim-9M. Giving the Sea Harrier FA2 slightly stronger Aim-9Ms compared to most other aircraft.
What BR should the Sea Harrier FA2 have in ARB?
Should the Sea Harrier FA2 get an airspawn?
What Spawn altitude advantage should the Sea Harrier FA2 get?
- 5000 ft / 1500m
- 8000ft / 2400m
- 10’000ft / 3000m
- 12’000ft / 3700m
- 15’000ft / 4600m
- I Said No
Should the Sea Harrier FA2 get later block Aim-9Ms
Should the AV-8B+ Get similar buffs?
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I do like the idea of the airspawn for subsonic fighters at top BR, theres going to be others coming in like the Hawk 128/200 and other trainers turn combat.
A forward airspawn will just help them to at least get some kind of capability in, especially with their team vs against their team by being potentially minutes behind the combat area, which lets be frank, will cripple non US teams by a large margin and potentially non Russian teams. The current matchmaker from my experience likes to put the US and Russia vs everyone else,
Which nations have 12.0 and above subsonic fighter aircraft? The UK and Italy, which will be teamed together more often then not and will see a chunk of their team in these planes too. Simply a ground spawn at the same location as supersonics will just give 1 team a distinct advantage if they have none of these airframes.
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The problem with the later AIM-9Ms is that we don’t have any sources regarding the later seeker. I had one manual for the AIM-9M which only references something along the line of “improved seeker with better countermeasure rejection” and that’s it.
Altough I agree with the points you made about both Harrier and AV-8B, maybe even more so for the Harrier since it loses guns if you wanna take AMRAAMs there, and its absolutely abysmal flight performance doesn’t help.
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Considering the flare resistance in both Aim-9L and Aim-9M are pretty clearly underperforming and been tuned down somewhat for “gameplay reasons”. They could just up the flare resistance by 10-20% and call it a day. Just eye-ball the upgrade.
But yeah, gunna be rough trying to play the FA2. Though hoping it can benefit from some buffs, like Aim-9Ms extended lock range which isnt in game yet
Move it down to 12.0, make it so 11.0 jets cant see 12.0 games, dont give it an air spawn unless its 10km behind the friendly af otherwise you’ll just be the first to do every game lol. I cant speak on what play style is gonna work for it but the best way im thinking of is simply binning off the 9ms and bringing 4 AMRAAM’s and just pulling an f14 by sending them off and rtb. The furball is instant death if you go near it and if any jet comes gets behind you within 10km you cant turn in time to be able to react to them and even if you could your already falling out the sky.
I think for once im actually looking forward to the tornado as ive finally learned how to take advantage of your amazing radar, ive been told the shars is going to be amazing also, but unless we start to have players who actually try and climb i doubt itll matter as the only way to take advantage of these radars is climbing and sending SARH and ARH missiles at ranges the enemy cant reach you due to energy (Im going to be raining hell fire down on any and all jets that dare go above 10ms from the deck in sim and rb).
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what kind of flare resistance should the AIM-9L have for realism? I know in-game it used to be very strong at discerning between flares and missiles (making it good at re-acquiring the target after it flares) but had that capability lessened. But IRL what does it have, I’m sure it doesn’t have any sort of IRCCM
Docs i’ve seen are these:
https://old-forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/583198-the-aim-9-sidewinder-missile-information-discussion-topic/&do=findComment&comment=9629908
From an RAF test using the jaguar as a target. In essence, if the target is on reheat, and an Aim-9L is fired in rear aspect. Flares (even large calibre ones that were used in the test) would do very little. If anything.
Now reducing to dry heat. Does make a big difference and things change in other aspects. But in essence. What Aim-9Ms are like in game. Is what I imagine Aim-9L was like IRL. If not stronger.
Persoanlly I think what AIm-9Ls were like when first added was about as realistic as we’ve ever had
These are good solutions, and something does need to be done. Otherwise you’d just bring the tornado for amraams. Or the Gripen which should not carry ARHs but here we are.
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Im kinda happy about that too be honest. I hated playing the Gripen C because of hte lack of BVR and Skyflash DFs vs R-27ER was not fun. Skyflash DFs vs Aim-120/R-77… pass
Remember that it was sold to Sweden players to get you lot the C before us on account of it not being able to carry ARHs and would never be given them. Now it has more effective ARHs (which it shouldn’t) and better air to ground (which is dubious at best). I stand by the fact it shouldn’t have them in the interest of consistency and fairness. Not inclined to derail the thread further, but I’d suggest keeping in mind you lot have no right to that, and it is not remotely fair on Sweden.
But that aside, still makes harrier redundant. Even if they stripped the ARHs, Tornado still better.
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i do understand the double standards of gaijin, but never aim to take away from other tech trees (unless it is simply op or unfair). gaijin have a habit of ripping things off and dragging bits and pieces with it. plus, we can’r be given I rst just yet so we needed something in the meanwhile. And im pretty sure someone showed a dock earlier showing all gripen cs could hold agm g/h.
I don’t think the Sea Harrier should get an airspawn or be lowered in BR, however I do believe it would help if you could choose to spawn on the forward airfield when using any kind of subsonic aircraft at 10.0 and higher.
Also, unless it’s physically impossible, the AMRAAMs on the outer rails should get a BOL flare/chaff option.
Thats already been bug reported and maybe in the files but yet to be added
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If the FA2 performs like a Sea Harrier, I don’t think it belongs above 12.0. Although it feels slightly less sluggish on the dev server, it still handles like a brick, retains energy like a cocaine addicted brick going trough a crash, and it’s about as fast as an inter-city coach.
AIM-120s, which seem to be the one sole thing that determines this plane’s BR, are reliably defeated the same way any radar missile is - hugging the ground. And to actually carry them, the FA2, unlike any other plane to my knowledge, must compromise other capabilities - guns or countermeasures.
I’m already training with the FRS1 by specifically looking for fights with F5s to prepare for the FA2 experience.
what do you mean fight? The total sum of a dog fight with an f5 is that they turn on you, then you have at most 30 seconds to live. The sea harrier cannot function if its within 10km of any enemy jets at 10.7, its just going to be far, far worse at 12.3. But the problem being so high is that everyone has radars that can spot you from the start of the match, and players know if your side climbing or flying, your easy pray.
You simply end up with 3 or 4 players all focusing you as your alone, only with my freind have i been able to defeat this, but the players that do this normally dont stop firing missiles untill your dead for whatever reason…
Though, interestingly. The sea harrier did beat the USAF F-5E aggressor squadron at a ratio of about 10-1.
I mean, thats what happens when your make a early cold war dog fighter face a jet with ARH missiles and an excellent radar… Removing multipathing should do some good for it, but even then it should really be 12.0 at most. Or what would be even better is if they added data link between jets, im not sure if the shar got it but the tornado would be alot more fun in sim if i could mark enemies on my friendlies radars with the amazing radar of the tornado.
Yeah… My intent is to make a big push for a BR drop next BR cycle. Hard to argue for a BR drop for the SHar when things like MP are in flux and the airframe isnt even finished on the dev server.
if MP remains overly oppresive. Then 12.0 might not be low enough. With the reduction. Alone with buffs to BOL and even Flame’s suggestion for BOL + Twin stores. I think 12.3 could be managable
Actually, that was the Sea Harrier FRS1 and that was before the Blue Fox radars were even installed. Check out Sharkey Wards book “Sea Harrier over the Falklands”, you want chapter 6
Wait what… may have to see how the professionals dealt with the f5 menace.
My thoughts exactly. I need to a master class in Sea Harrier combat