Richelieu and sisterships discussion

Machinery of War Discussion Navy
45

I feel if the devs give the Richelieu targeting dispersion similar to the dunkerque as a pseudo quality of life buff it wouldn’t be that overzealous. Since many other ships in other nations that would suffer from a worse dispersion due to turret design don’t have it represented in game. The richelieu deserves to have its accuracy made more “tasteful” for the sake of parity.

I have missed many shots both in realistic and arcade mode that i would never have missed in the dunkerque due to dispersion being “exaggerated” on the richelieu.

Would it be unreasonable to believe that the accuracy of the sister ship to the richelieu the jean Bart would be better due to a better more modern FCS system?

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46

Actually I found some really interesting notice in the topic about French 380mm guns dispersion:

Jean Bart’s 2 x 380mm gun salvos , fired on Nov 10th 1942 against CA USS Augusta from range ~ 18000meters certainly did not exhibit 450meters dispersions, as Augusta was nearly directly hit by the shells, and her decks were put awash. Out of 10 x 2 x 380mm shots salvos, the “last three” being “close straddles”. (according to Morrison, operations in North African Waters, pg 163)

PS2: Interestingly enough, an online book depicting Jean Bart’s sole turret firing against USS Augusta , shows guns being fired from odd and even barrels. I.e., gun1 with gun3 and gun2 with gun4. If this is a correct depiction of the actual firing being executed on NOv 10th, it may explain the better dispersion - then that exhibited by Richelieu , firing with gun1 and gun2 or gun3 with gun4 - as distancce between barrels was substantialy larger for the method employed on Jean Bart, and therefore shell interference was smaller. (“Operation Torch 1942: The Invasion of French North Africa”, by Brian Lane Herder, pg 58)

So as I know, Richelieu guns didn’t seem to have some dispersion problems by themselves, BUT it mostly was because construction of quad turret, that 4 guns (actually 2+2) were pretty close to each other and also questionable quality of shells

And in the game, trying to being into realism, developer’s dispersion decision is just to take the results of shooting test, and Richelieu showed awful dispersion results here, while firing gun1+gun2 and gun3+gun4 and again with questionable quality of shells. But unfortunately current strategy for dispersion doesn’t take into such nuances

PS. But anyway, I am really glad to have Richelieu in game, finally one French BB with really decent armour and survivability. Really the best battleship for France right now, feels so much better and reliable compared to Dunkerque

Though I also don’t really understand, why Richelieu has higher br than Vanguard. I mean, they are pretty much the same, Vanguard is better in reload, bursting charge, accuracy, belts armor, frontal armour, speed… So hm, what’s the reason?

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47

Note that Richelieu’s test was also done with guns having fired 200 shots

48

QE’s guns were used from Battle of Jutland and still had almost just half of dispersion as Richelieu’s during actions in 1942

49

Yes, it’s still true that Richelieu had dispersion problems

But it’s more a “quad firing timing” thing than each individual gun being inaccurate.

Dare i say it’s easier to get those “young years” problems fixed when you still have a shipyard, and that’s more or less what was done after the war on Richelieu and Jean Bart. A question of bad timing if you will, as it often happens in a context like WW2

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50
Spoiler

https://forum-en-cdn.warthunder.com/optimized/4X/2/8/a/28a15c2b016838f11305beb59057ff3d79227cd3_2_306x1500.jpeg

So apparently, we’re getting the Clem next patch… as a tech tree addition. It won’t be added alone though.

GUESS WHICH ONE IS GOING TO BE PREMIUM ?

Not even trying to hide the greed I guess. Or it’s the 1942 Jean Bart (yeah right). We’ll see. Still, even though this was incredibly predictable, it’s no less sad.

4 Likes
51

I’d rather predict Jean Bart as fully operational. Gaijin does not prioritize unfinished version of ship when finished version exist.

52

I expect Clemenceau to be a premium ship equipped with the SD19 and without US ammunition, giving 712 mm penetration, which aligns with other nations’ Rank IV premium ships. Jean Bart is likely to be at 8.7 with the latest update (radar, FCS, reload time, accuracy and ammunition fixes).

53

According to the leaks, the Jean Bart is the premium one, and the Clem is added to the tech tree.

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54

Yeah having the Clemenceau be tech tree and Jean Bart as a premium is pretty weird… but I think I see Gaijin’s “logic.” Clemenceau has more secondary guns, therefore more “firepower,” therefore it’s the strongest version of the ship. So it goes into the tech tree, whereas Jean Bart, which has more advanced AA, is premium as it’s a “sidegrade.”

I don’t really agree… but I’m also not that frustrated. I’m mostly glad to see all of the ships coming to the game. I’ll probably pick up Jean Bart at some point.

55

Please, Gaijn, SWAP the Clémenceau and the Jean-Bart.
The Jean-Bart represents the evolution of French battleships much more than the Clemenceau. It is not just a secondary sister ship of the Richelieu. It is literally the most modern battleship France has ever had. In comparison, the Clémenceau remains a design that dates back to the beginning of WW2 and, having not been completed, could not be modernized and evolve with the war and new threats and technology, whereas the Jean-Bart was completed after the war as a true modern battleship and a true evolution of the Richelieu. It received much more anti-aircraft armament, which was much more modern, an improvement in its rate of fire, and a correction to the accuracy problem of its main guns. It also received better protection against torpedoes.
And it has a crazy history.
This ship should be in the regular French tree.
It undoubtedly represents the true French Leviathan even more than the Richelieu.
Please, just swap these two ships.

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56

someone should do a public poll to show the devs we want the clem and jean swapped!

Jean as tech tree and Clem as prem.

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57

Clémenceau will not be getting catapults and floatplanes from the looks of it

https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/jL16d6fxEO4r
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/0619j7hGsT74

58

“Not a bug”

59

The displacement argument is just… What?

There’s no indication that Clemenceau would’ve been that different from Richelieu considering that they trimmed the armor to make up for the added weight from the changes.
And by the time Clemenceau would’ve been completed the war would’ve been underway for years, meaning that by that point the Washington agreements limitation would’ve long been thrown out the window. No need to limit the ship to 35,000 tonnes anymore.
Both Richelieu and Jean Bart proved that they were capable of adapting to more weight than originally designed, with Richelieu weighing 44,000 tonnes post US-refit and Jean Bart 46,500 tonnes as completed, so there was no real issue on that front.

It’s like someone just arbitrarily decided that Clemenceau would not have planes (despite the vast majorities of blueprints featuring aviation installations) and that’s it. It’s… bizarre, honestly.

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60

If only there was a dedicated historical accuracy report system like there was for bugs, that was only reviewed by Gaijin’s consultants and game designers, we could skip this whole “not a bug” step

61

Is there a good reason that Clemenceau is so much faster than Richelieu?

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gonna guess Rich is as fast as she actually could go, and Clem gets her planned/calculated speed

63

Weight. Richelieu is around ~48k tonnes while Clemenceau is ~44.5k tonnes.

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64

Still can’t accomodate Floatplanes apparently.