Remove R-27ER

[MiG_23M]

@Ziggy1989

My mistake, I thought you said the ER can deflect more that the R27R.

Ah okay, all is forgiven.

@Ziggy1989

If you think the R27R is underperforming. Put in a report.

The kinematic performance and off-bore capability is within what is seen in the manual although testing could likely be conducted to see if the very slow maneuvering performance is hampered (where 40 degree deflection would matter).

Likewise, I must ask that if you think the R-27ER is overperforming to please… put in a report.

@Ziggy1989

Deflection does not mean anything. The missiles are still a maximum overload of 35Gs. They cannot exceed.

It means quite a lot actually, every missile in the game has a peak airspeed wherein it reaches a peak overload and then it falls off. As someone pointed out earlier, it takes longer for the AIM-7F to fall off the peak overload than the R-27 series… it just also happens to have a lower overload to begin with.

@Ziggy1989

The R27ER is limited by the same aerodynamic design it has no ability to maneuver any more than the R27R.

That’s correct in the same speed ranges but we know the R-27ER can go much faster. It is still governed by a 35G overload, but it maintains this overload for considerably longer periods of time and is traveling often at above optimal speeds which drastically increase the turn radius over the R-27R.

@Ziggy1989

That is why all it was given was a longer burn motor. It never had the ability to accelerate and maneuver under the continuous massive thrust it demonstrates in game.

You were shown this isn’t the case. The top speed and acceleration is actually quite accurate.

@Ziggy1989

Because if it did, it would have been aerodynamically improved and have a maximum overload far in excess of 35gs
It never was.
All you can do it refer to another video game as a source for thrust.

@BBCRF provided you data and you conveniently ignored or dismissed it like you tried to for the patent above so many times now.

If you have information please share it because all you have right now are verifiably false assumptions.

[Ziggy1989]

@MiG_23M

You were shown this isn’t the case. The top speed and acceleration is actually quite accurate.

Shown how?

by comparing a irrelevant distance of zero to 1km taken from a different video game? lol
The top speed at altitude is from the long burn motor when flown its maximum distance at high altitude.

You have no thrust specs of the R27ER, or any proof of its acceleration neither does @BBCRF

He already said, you must go to Russia to read the source.

[MiG_23M]

He posted it, you just ignored it;

As you can see here and I will use the 5km line as reference… the speed of sound at 5km is ~316-322 m/s depending on air pressure. I’ll use 318 m/s as reference.

Therefore, from a launch speed of 500 m/s (1.57 mach) the missile should achieve a top speed at 5km altitude of 1,400 m/s (4.4 mach). In-game the top speed in this same scenario is approximately 1,000 m/s (3.14 mach).

Sidenote;
DCS conducted a CFD of their missile model, but has the wrong thrust numbers. Their missile has much higher top speed and acceleration than the War Thunder model. Your claim previously was that they buffed it on purpose and yet it fails to meet the top speeds given in these documentation. That’s because Gaijin’s model is far more conservative than it needed to be and it has slowly been amended. Currently it reaches the target engagement ranges and time to target for maximum launch distance but fails to perform at shorter ranges. It could actually perform better than you think it should.

[Ziggy1989]

@MiG_23M

In-game the top speed in this same scenario is approximately 1,000 m/s (3.14 mach).

Wrong. In game can reach in game Mach 3.5 + at 3,000 feet

Much lower than 5km altitude.

[MiG_23M]

@Ziggy1989

Wrong. In game can reach in game Mach 3.5 + at 3,000 feet

If the website I am using for reference is incorrect I’ll concede that point, but please note that 3.5 is still far less than 4.4.

[Ziggy1989]

Note that 3,000 feet is far less that 16,000 feet.

This is nothing, but further highlighting the ERs overperformance.

@MiG_23M

5km altitude of 1,400 m/s (4.4 mach). In-game the top speed in this same scenario is approximately 1,000 m/s (3.14 mach).

The missile is already operating well past your listed speed at of Mach 3.14 at 16,000 feet.

It is already operating Mach 3.5 at 3,000 feet in WT.

[MiG_23M]

@Ziggy1989

Note that 3,000 feet is far less that 16,000 feet.

You said you had plenty of videos highlighting this overperformance. Do you have any showing it can hit 3.5+ mach from a launch at 3,000 feet without launching it into space?

[CorporalApollo-psn]

@MiG_23M

If the website

That’s a really cool website, I hope it’s correct. Lots of misconceptions are going around about the various missiles in-game, would be nice to have a site to reference.

[Ziggy1989]

Yes, & if I can show Mach 4 performance under 10,000 feet then what?

[MiG_23M]

@CorporalApollo

That’s a really cool website, I hope it’s correct. Lots of misconceptions are going around about the various missiles in-game, would be nice to have a site to reference.

Not sure, but in-game test shows at 10km the missile (when launched from 1.02 mach) peaked at no more than 4.27 mach by end of burn.

Launching from 3km altitude, same scenario… the missile topped out at 3.43 mach which is less than the 3.5+ that Ziggy claims and also matches the relevant documentation fairly closely.

Matching the scenario in the chart (500 m/s launch speed and 5km alt) yields just short of 1400 m/s speed for the missile (~4.3-4.4 mach). This matches the chart.

[Ziggy1989]

Interesting… you ran off to log on the game & launch a missile because you were unsure & recorded a Mach 3.43

Fascinating guy who does not play Top Tier.

I love how you conveniently leave how quickly the missiles peak in these speeds too.

[MiG_23M]

@Ziggy1989

Interesting… you ran off to log on the game & launch a missile because you were unsure & recorded a Mach 3.43

You cast doubt on the website, I verified in-game the missile is still performing according to the above chart. You’re wrong.

@Ziggy1989

Fascinating guy who does not play Top Tier.

I don’t see how that is relevant to whether or not the missile performs according to known data. I have (and do still) play top tier for quite some time. I do not put in hundreds of matches a week but the number of matches played per week has no bearing on the performance of the weapon.

@Ziggy1989

I love how you conveniently leave how quickly the missiles peak in these speeds too.

The chart indicates they peak at about 8s flight time and that is also the case in the game. The top speed is achieved only at approximately 8-10s. It matches the page I shared above.

Yet again you’re wrong

[UNN_Daedalos]

can’t understand the distance plot though

i might be dumb

but yeah, great tool

EDIT : the website seems off at high altitudes though.

1270 m/s (or Mach 4.2) max velocity for a R27ER launched at Mach 2 and 10.000 m altitude seems quite pessimistic compared to ingame behavior

[MiG_23M]

Will have to inquire the person who made it. Perhaps it uses the old R-27ER data pre-fix or something. Either way, that’s why I ran the in-game tests as well.

[The_Great_Pigeon]

The distance plot uses the y axis numbers with a ratio of 1 = 100 meters.

So the graph you posted puts the green line at approx 100 at 10 seconds. 100x100 10000m at 10 seconds.

It may feel off ingame since you normally fire at hot targets that close distance in those 10 seconds.

Also the website documentation section states the Rho formula is only accurate up to 10000 meters, might be thrown off the closer you get.

[UNN_Daedalos]

i mean even over 10 km it’s seems off

Just like speed, distance seems off, since it would mean a R27ER fired at 10.000m and Mach 2 can only reach 35km. That definitely seems not right

[BBCRF]

The game rocket does not match the schedule. If you take 10km and 600m/s, then the max speed is 1600m/s, on the site 1300 and the final speed according to the schedule is 350-400m/s on the site 300

[MiG_23M]

That is horizontal distance traveled for the missile not target range at launch.

@BBCRF

The game rocket does not match the schedule. If you take 10km and 600m/s, then the max speed is 1600m/s, on the site 1300 and the final speed according to the schedule is 350-400m/s on the site 300

The site is off, however the in-game performance is close to the charts.

[UNN_Daedalos]

@MiG_23M

That is horizontal distance traveled for the missile not target range at launch.

even then, it’s way too low compared to in game.

even a 530F would travel 30km at these launch parameters.

But as you said :

@MiG_23M

The site is off, however the in-game performance is close to the charts.

[Ziggy1989]

@MiG_23M

You cast doubt on the website, I verified in-game the missile is still performing according to the above chart. You’re wrong.

You cast doubt on your own site lol…

@MiG_23M

If the website I am using for reference is incorrect I’ll concede that point

Oh this hilarious, check it out. You just burned yourself.

You just stated in your own words how the R27ER should perform & does preform in WT according to your math & a single graph in Russian…

@MiG_23M

As you can see here, and I will use the 5km line as reference… the speed of sound at 5km is ~316-322 m/s depending on air pressure. I’ll use 318 m/s as reference.

Therefore, from a launch speed of 500 m/s (1.57 mach) the missile should achieve a top speed at 5km altitude of 1,400 m/s (4.4 mach). In-game the top speed in this same scenario is approximately 1,000 m/s (3.14 mach).

“In-game the top speed in this same scenario is approximately 1,000 m/s (3.14 mach)”

You just declared the missiles top speed in game is Mach 3.14 @ 5km altitude or 16,000ft+.

This is your entire argument the missile is not overperforming in thrust & acceleration & claiming the missiles top speed at 5km altitude is Mach 3.14.

You had to double check when indicated I can prove better at lower altitudes & more speed, so without replying, you quickly logged on to test the missile yourself & found out it is performing much faster at much lower altitudes that you claim.

You even confirmed this in your own words…

[quote=“MiG_23M, post:658, topic:53311”]
Launching from 3km altitude, same scenario… the missile topped out at 3.43 mach which is less than the 3.5+ that Ziggy claims and also matches the relevant documentation fairly closely.
[4/quote]

Because you were too eager to prove me wrong and proudly report that your ER test showed Mach 3.43 @ 3km & not Mach 3.5 I have claimed, **you inadvertently defeated your whole argument & actually proved you are just making up numbers to argue & push an entirely false narrative.

That is why you did not to report your findings to me direct, Hoping I would not catch it.

You just made up a whole talking point, your fake math & calculations too. You literally made up that the R27ER flies at approximately 1,000 m/s (3.14 Mach). You even go further to make up how many meters a second its flying!

“5km altitude of 1,400 m/s”.