Q-5L and its weaponary

Sonoda_Kotori · October 25, 2023, 6:32am

Where did you find this book? I’ve been looking for it forever and people refused to send it to me. I can provide a detailed translation. Here are the gist of it:

为了加强飞机的战场生存能力，从强五IA飞机开始安装了941型箔条/红外干扰弹综合投放器，作为飞机电子对抗系统的重要组成部分。
In order to improve the survivability of the aircraft on battlefields, Type 941 chaff/flare dispensers were equipped starting from Q-5IA as an integral part of the aircraft’s EW suite.

This picture is the Type 941 dispenser. Each dispenser contains 32 shots.

941型箔条/红外干扰弹综合投放器由控制系统和若干个发射筒组成，控制系统根据雷达告警器确定的干扰对象，决定投放箔条或红外干扰弹的品种、数量、投放时机和时间间隔。投放方式一般有手控、程控和应急三种控制方式
Type 941 chaff/flare dispenser consists of a controller and a certain amount of launch tubes, the controller determines the type, amount, timing and delays of the countermeasures deployed according to the targets identified by the RWR. Countermeasures can be dispensed manually, programmed (the aforementioned automatic deployment), or via emergency deployment.

除了能使用激光制导炸弹外，强五L飞机还能够挂载使用国内新研制的一些新型空地制导武器。随着国内对这方面技术的研究发展，一批重量轻、精度高的新型激光制导炸弹、电视制导炸弹、制导滑翔炸弹、小型空地导弹等陆续研制成功，彻底改变了原先强五飞机只能在机翼中间重载挂架上挂载LS-500J型激光制导炸弹这单一的一种激光制导武器的局限性。机冀内侧和外侧的轻载挂架也能够挂载这些重量较轻的小型空地导弹，这样就大大增加了强五L飞机的武器挂载方案，作战能力和使用灵活性更佳。
Apart from LGBs, the Q-5L is capable of carrying modern domestic air-to-ground guided munitions. As the domestic research and development progresses, a wave of lightweight, high accuracy laser guided bombs, TV guided bombs, guided glide bombs and compact air to ground missiles were successfully developed, completely changing the limited guided armament of one LS-500J LGB per middle (heavyweight) pylon. The inboard and outboard (lightweight) pylons are now capable of carrying these smaller AGMs, significantly increasing the Q-5L’s suspended armament, improving its combat capabilities and mission versatility.

强五飞机主要用于对地攻击，因此空战能力较弱。除了使用机炮能够进行空战外，为了进一步加强飞机的自卫空战能力，在强五III等改进型飞机的机翼翼尖挂架上还增装了空空导弹。由于强五飞机本身没有安装机载火控雷达，因此只能挂载国产霹雳-5，霹雳-7,或法制“魔术”，美制“响尾蛇”等红外制导空空导弹，而无法使用雷达制导导弹。
Q-5’s primary purpose is ground attack, therefore its A2A capabilities were limited. Apart from dogfighting with the autocannons, in order to further increase its self-defence A2A capabilities, air to air missiles were added on the wing tip pylons (technically outboard pylons, not wingtips) of the Q-5III (A-5C) and other improved variants. Due to the lack of an onboard radar, only infrared AAMs such as the PL-5, PL,-7, Magics or Sidewinders were used, and it’s incapable of launching radar-guided missiles.

pegabug · October 25, 2023, 8:49am

The Q-5IA happened simultaneously as the A-5C upgrade. The A-5C program was meant as a foreign trade version of the Q-5 based off the Q-5I. Particularly the modification design for the A-5C was carried out under the same standards for Q-5IA. They shared the same base requirements but the A-5C had additional requirements set forth by Pakistan. This is why we see a lot of the subsystems that were first introduced on the Q-5IA also on the A-5C; the programs were not mutually exclusive and improved Q-5’s often built off of the past programs. This is why the document says improved Q-5’s can carry AAM’s and gives an non-limiting example as the A-5C. This is also why the Q-5IA is not able to carry AAM’s. But instead it is here, at the Q-5IA where many of the other improved Q-5 variants are built off of and all have access to the technology developed and used in the A-5C program. Furthermore it is commonplace in these books to not include every feature of each variant, it covers what is done differently. Such as the Q-5IA upgrading the RWR system to be 360 coverage over the Q-5I’s tail only coverage. As such, at the critical junction of the A-5C development and onwards, there is no further need to specify each and every variant of Q-5 can carry AAM’s because it was already established that they are able to carry the domestic Pl-5 in the A-5C program. As just one more example of one program taking from another, take the flares on the A-5C for example. The Q-5IA led the development for countermeasures and the A-5C took what had already worked there and reproduced them for the A-5C program and then modified the design to fit the clients demands for usage of the GT-1 flare pod instead of the Type 941.

pegabug · October 25, 2023, 8:53am

Thanks for the translations! I got access to these books by another forum user. here’s the link to the drive with them: Microsoft OneDrive

If this does not work, here is a link to the forum post with a link to the drive that does work: Q-5L Missing Countermeasures & Visual Model Inaccuracies - China - War Thunder - Official Forum

SaratogaCV60 · October 25, 2023, 9:07am

But there are no photographs showing that the PLAAF Q5 is equipped with AAM.

Armen_Lozone · October 25, 2023, 4:21pm

the missiles are probably just there for show, many militaries do that to display aircraft

Bonrath · October 25, 2023, 9:24pm

The wiring however should still be available, the IA model had missile capability and if you think about it it should really still be available for the L/N ( especially the N since it’s based off the D)

pegabug · October 25, 2023, 10:42pm

Think you are right about that one in the photo, none of the sources I’ve ever read on the Q-5 mentioned being compatible with Pl-8’s. And looking at the pylons they are mounted to, they look less of like a pylon more as just something attached to make it hold it.

pegabug · October 25, 2023, 10:48pm

Photographic evidence does not disclude the capability to use them. You will find no photos of a USAF F-5C with flare pods, yet it could still mount them and thus has them in game. It is not surprising that their is no photos of AAM’s on the Q-5’s by the PLAAF, we only really got to see the later improved variants from an occasional flyby or as a demonstration aircraft where they only equipped what they planned to demo, namely guided bombs for Q-5L’s with rocket pods to show it has guided weaponry capability and unguided close up ground strike abilities.

I think the best way to look at which Q-5’s have the capability to mount AAM’s is to see which has the ability to mount the 3rd, lighter outer wing pylon, sometimes referred to as the wingtip pylon. This is the pylon that carries AAM’s, unguided rocket pods, and 250-3 dumb bombs. The Q-5IA and prior variants do NOT have this ability and even some variants after the IA do not either. The Q-5L, which is the one in question, DOES have access to using this pylon. The pylon itself is already capable of supporting AAM’s because it was the same ones designed and used in the A-5C program.

SaratogaCV60 · October 26, 2023, 1:44am

What you are saying is all based on your speculation, the article you provided only proves that the Q5III is integrated with AAM, not that the Q5II and its improved variants are equipped with AAM. If you are going to prove that any other Q5 is capable of carrying AAM then you should at least find accurate documentation or photographs.

pegabug · October 26, 2023, 3:21am

The source proves that OTHER improved variants besides the A-5C can mount AAM’s. And we’ve gone over this, Q-5IA is not considered an improved variant, it is the base for multiple improved variants like the Q-5L. I further outlined that it is common place within the entirety of the Q-5 program that even though the base may be different for one variant, it isn’t uncommon to receive the same upgrades from an older variant as part of an improvement. If you actually read the document which details the many other types of Q-5’s and their development, you would’ve noticed this. But yet in the text they mention how the Q-5L outer (wingtip) and inner light pylons can mount rocket pods. This was a change, yet it wasn’t mentioned despite being new for this variant. The only reason it was mentioned at all in the text was because they were describing how 2 laser guided bombs was a limited ordnance and that these other pylons can be used to enhance it’s ground strike abilities. This ability was taken directly from past Q-5 programs and used on the Q-5L. Furthermore the A-5C program already established the wingtip pylons are wired for Pl-5 compatibility.

But since you are appear to be a US main, lets flip the script. There is no photos of USAF F-5C’s with flares. Know why that is? The countermeasure pod wasn’t developed until AFTER plane was withdrawn from services. Here’s a forum post discussing this inconsistency: F-5C Flares need to be removed. It is FICTIONAL - #12 by MiG_23M In THEORY it could mount them with a conversion, therefore it was deemed it could get them in game.

I have provided a stronger reasoning on why the Q-5L can carry AAM’s than the US F-5C getting flare pods that didn’t exist throughout it’s entire service. If the AAM’s get denied, then I’m afraid the US F-5C, F-5A, etc are gonna need there flare pods to be removed.

SaratogaCV60 · October 26, 2023, 3:30am

Your guess is just based on what you think the improved options for the Q5III were also added to the Q5II. However, the information you sent only indicates that the Q5III received this modification, and does not indicate that the Q5II received the same upgrade. It was also not possible to find any photographs of PLAAF Q5s carrying AAM.
Similarly, I think it is acceptable for F5C to remove CMD.

pegabug · October 26, 2023, 3:47am

My “guess” or logic is that 1) other variants deemed as ‘improved’ can carry AAM’s 2) the Q-5L directly takes the wingtip pylons from other improved variants despite the IA base not having them nor was it part of the L program development 3) these wing tip pylons have the same capabilities as the ones used for the A-5C

But outside of of getting the PLAAF to make a statement on this or Nanchang providing information (neither will happen) this is the best information available that we have to work with. Gaijin has made it a point where they will add capabilities to aircraft that theoretically can equip them, that is what I am making this case for with the AAM’s.

You disagreeing with Gaijins take on adding theoretical capabilities is entirely valid but that is an issue you would have to petition for them to reverse.

Gunjob · October 26, 2023, 5:45am

I’m just trying to help the community have the best chance of being successful with the report. I can’t speak to decisions made on other aircraft as I don’t make them haha.

pegabug · October 26, 2023, 5:55am

Image found captioned as Q-5 prototype

Image found captioned as with an anti-ship missile

Anybody have any further information on these images I dug up? The first one is very interesting, looks like a Pl-2 and with the original variant prototype. That would support some peoples claims that all Q-5’s, even before the Q-5III (A-5C) development.

ueberman · October 26, 2023, 12:46pm

First of all the people over in the Tornado thread showed with evidence that the Tornado is capable of carring GBUs there and it wasnt applied by using “logic”, second the PSO doesnt have its addon armor because they denied it, but it should have, and the people in the PSO thread also proved that, and again not by using “logic”. And they, in both cases, had more evidence then here in the case of the Q-5L.

The others I do agree with tho.

I hope you guys who reported my post for being “off-topic” report the post I was replying to aswell, or youre all abusing the reporting system, just classic.

Sonoda_Kotori · October 27, 2023, 4:11am

The top image was the original wooden mockup for the very first Q-5 design called Xiong Ying 302, built by personnel from both Shenyang and Nanchang. It wasn’t an actual aircraft so that can’t serve as a proof of all Q-5s can fire AAMs.

The bottom image was supposed to be a prototype AGM and NOT a YJ-8X series AShM as much as the Chinese internet sources loves to claim. The 1970s Q-5Yi was supposed to carry the predecessor of the YJ-8X/C801 series called the YJ-8K, but was cancelled when JH-7 was commissioned as the future AShM carrier [1]. The aircraft in picture is clearly not a Q-5Yi as the sole prototype was scrapped ages ago and featured a slanted nose with a radar. The missile also looks too small to be a YJ-8X series missile.

Here’s the same plane from another angle:

According to the description from the Chinese Aircraft Encyclopedia, this was the Q-5E prototype that carries two unnamed laser guided bombs, first flown in 1999. The Q-5F laser guidance aircraft with the targeting pod first flew in 2000. The idea was to employ buddy lasing with one or more Q-5F carrying drop tanks guiding LGBs dropped from multiple Q-5Es also carrying drop tanks, as equipping both the bombs and a targeting pod would mean a significant reduction in combat radius. The bombs were said to be shelved when development wrapped up in 2004 [2]. It was replaced by the Q-5L which first flew later in the same year and carried both the pod and LGBs.

However, the other book claims that this was a Q-5F laser guidance aircraft, carrying two unnamed AGMs in place of the extra fuel tanks [3], and that the Q-5E was actually carrying the LT-2/LS-500J that was later used on the Q-5L/N variants, not some prototype LGB.

This book also claimed that the Q-5E was painted in a tricolor camouflage while the Q-5F was unpainted and remained in primer yellow on page 133, further backing up its claim.

Indeed, we can find an actual image of the Q-5E with the LT-2/LS-500J here:

So I’m inclined to think that it was indeed some sort of prototype AGMs. The warhead also resembles a transparent seeker window.

[1] Chinese Aircraft Encyclopedia, Page 145
[2] Chinese Aircraft Encyclopedia, Page 157-158
[3] 东风乍起-中国强-5强击机传纪, Page 79

Sonoda_Kotori · October 27, 2023, 4:25am

Bonus: Here’s a Q-5 (probably a Q-5L judging from the white livery) carrying a 250kg FT-6 gliding guided bomb with a claimed max range of 80km. Obviously it was an inert for accuracy testing and it was 4.5m off the target.

If the claim below from 东风乍起-中国强-5强击机传纪 is correct, then all 3 sets of wing pylons can carry these lightweight guided ordinances:

机翼内侧和外侧的轻载挂架也能够挂载这些重量较轻的小型空地导弹，这样就大大增加了强五L飞机的武器挂载方案，作战能力和使用灵活性更佳。
The inboard and outboard (lightweight) pylons are now capable of carrying these smaller AGMs, significantly increasing the Q-5L’s suspended armament, improving its combat capabilities and mission versatility.

Here are some photos for the FT-series guided bombs: